So I had to find a job immediately, and I had failed all this time. My CV was literally my name and the phone number of my lecturer who I knew personally could lie for me and say, she’s so wonderful. I committed. That was my city. So obviously nobody hired me. I had to get a job. I had to pick up some skills. I got into graphic design in Photoshop through tutorials. I somehow fumbled my way into getting a job at a food delivery startup here in Kenya. I guess the barrier for entry must have been so low because I had. I just had, like, those designs. I had done, like, a portfolio after taking those tutorials, and Luckily, I guess they were desperate enough that they hired me, and I came in as a social media marketing manager, and somehow I must have done a good job because handling the main branch in Kenya, they added, like, the Compella. You got that branch to it. So I became the manager for both, and I got to learn on the fly. Recently led by Hub Spot free courses, the courses are a little less marketing through that altercation. So I know my stuff, and that was around early 2016. I used to be a book blogger before then, so I had to work with publishers. I had to work with top published authors to create, like, social media graphics for their blog posts. I have been doing some marketing, although I didn’t consider it marketing. I had lied my willingness to get some job and Upwork to do marketing for someone, and, wow, not sure how they hired me. Just like that. I got into marketing, and that’s how I just stumbled my way to find out what I really liked in life.

Dana Kadwell

I love that, and I really loved it. I feel like you’re like the epitome of fake it till you make it.

Abbie Nwaocha

I got it.

Dana Kadwell

I love that. It’s something that we actually tell our brand new wedding planners because they have the skills, they have the ability, they have the drive. But there is that confidence when you’re trying to sell yourself to something that we’re like, just fake it till you make it. Just fake it. Fake the funk here. It’s fine. I love that. So that was what you said, 2016. 

Abbie Nwaocha

Yeah, so it is also 16. I did a book project in 2015. I did the start-up in 2016. Then around any 2016. I just sort of got bored. I’m thinking of the hot spot classes. I’m thinking of the tutorial at this point. Everything I’m watching, all the blog posts are saying the same thing. There is no challenge. So let’s just jump into something else. 

Dana Kadwell

What moment do you think was, like, your big breaking point that you’re like, okay, I’m going to start my own business. 

Abbie Nwaocha

That one. I got super confident. I know I don’t like confidence, but I was like, you know what I learned? YouTube tutorials. I love Photoshop tutorials through YouTube. I am a graphic designer. I got a job at a startup. Let’s start a graphic design company. I got my friends around with my first client. My mom was one of my first clients, then my roommates, then my colleagues at school, then my neighbors. Then, after all, wonderful. To be fair, neither of them paid me a dime. So I was like, I have got this. Let’s get a paying client. So I got this lady. She’s like, oh, I need to design this flyer for me. I was still in the football, the startup. So I was touching lots of restaurants, lots of food bloggers as well. I was really into the food industry in Kenya. They’re like, do this design for me. I was like, yeah, I can do it. I made a design. You’re like, change this, change. Okay, I’ll change that changes. Okay. As long as I like graphic design, it’s so close to me that I can’t take critique on that. I can take feedback on that, and that was my first lesson. Liking something doesn’t mean you’re ready to make it a business, because when it becomes a business, it’s about them, not about you, and you need to humble yourself because the customer gets quite selfish. That’s the first one to use. They want what you’re paying for it, and I want what I want because I’m not creating here, and that did not mesh. So that did not work out for six months. I couldn’t handle it like, that’s a feeling. Humble myself, went back to employment. I started working for this group of companies. I work directly with the owner, the man, and his wife, and they have four companies under them. So I figured out, okay, I need to learn how to take critics. What better way to work with someone who has several companies under them, and because they have an established brand, my stuff has to match exactly what they want, and one of them was in politics. So I definitely always had to have it on points. Because if I don’t have this excellent, it’s a problem. What the heck is this man? So I had to learn how to take criticism after I figured, okay, I’ve done this for one next to a year. I can take critique. Let’s start another business. So market design is what I like marketing. Let’s have a marketing agency, and, oh, my God. We marketed as an employee, and we market as an employer. Two completely different things.

Dana Kadwell

Yeah.

Abbie Nwaocha

Oh, my God. As an employee, for the most part, they already know what they want. You working with what they have as an employer. You’re making the dash from scratch strategy. You can’t do that. It’s all in you. I couldn’t handle all that. All the responsibility on me. Like, I got to do the sales plan, the marketing plan, the business processes, and it was so bloody hard, Jesus Christ. It’s so annoying. Every single passion I had for the magazine shriveled up and died, and I think the worst part was that I had high expectations. Like, I am going to make $10,000 in my first month with my mom, and, like, in your Facebook, I can take care of myself. That did not happen. I feel like I could have handled all the setbacks. But what I couldn’t handle was that the expectations I had. I never could meet them. I put myself in this bedroom. So I had this high expectation that I never met, and I got stressed out. It’s like I focused so much on me, what I wanted to get. But for most of the time, I sort of ignored you, like I’m giving you a service here. You’re paying for it here. But I’m not happy with it.

Dana Kadwell

Right. 

Abbie Nwaocha

I have a feeling.

Dana Kadwell

Right.

Abbie Nwaocha

So I struggled with that for a while. You know what? I have a friend of mine patient, and I told her she’s like, maybe you’re ready for this right now. You need to lend some more responsibility. You need to lend discipline. The people you work with, like, the man and a woman just walk closely with them. But there is more to a business and liking marketing. There’s operations. There’s a legal part. They suck. That is the accounting part. They suck even more ads, and how much you just, like, learn that from them for this. Then come back. So I’m like, okay, I don’t like, like, Hey, by the way, can I be a personal assistant? Somehow, like, if you want to buy because personal assistants, and so like I just looking at this life, I’m like, it’s so stressful. Because I work closely with him and his wife, I kept counting her five hours of sleep in the night. If I have less than six hours, I get grumpy. But I did learn responsibility. I did learn more discipline, I did learn that you know what, instead of business, it’s quite fun. He has fun parts. But if I’m going to especially like, this is going to be so easy. I watch this movie. Like what like Mad Men and like just walking around, and like pausing and like cut through a file defending the act. Like reality, and that wasn’t the thing. 2018 It was COVID it was 2018, and then I worked my butt off, and I saw what, starting your own businesses, they’ll do a serial entrepreneur, so they were more advanced, and I guess I got to see what’s happening. Lots of businesses look like, into successful and I didn’t I wouldn’t business but look like that was a nice, I can handle that. So like okay, so I found a female entrepreneur like, let’s work closely, and let’s see how your business works. I said I attended more live workshops. The thing is really, like, spend a whole day with someone, like, shadowing them. But for a day. So I did that, and that was the most fun, and I worked for this company anyway, but she’s in a remote working space to make shadowed her for a while, and that was fun, just purely online. Because my boss had an offline thing. One bit, this is architecture. The next is construction. His wife had politics and publishing. So I got to experience different parts. I got to see what I liked and what I did not like, and I definitely like working with women, like let’s speak to women. I like mocking people who are not very techy. That way I can do as I want and just be more free and like set up things like that. Okay, so female starting face lovers, I think I like that. And like marketing as well. Like some sort of figuring out what I want to do. But marketing is broad. So like, let’s not bring this down. Like what about marketing? Do I like to say no, I’ve been everywhere have taken all those crossovers tutorials?

Dana Kadwell

Okay. 

Abbie Nwaocha

I like that. I like marketing as well. 

Dana Kadwell

Okay. 

Abbie Nwaocha

So I’m sort of figuring out what I want to do, but marketing is broad, so let’s not bring this down. What about marketing? Do I, like everywhere, taking all those courses, all the tutorials.

Courtney Hopper

Obviously, it wasn’t graphic design.

Abbie Nwaocha

Oh, my God. And I guess all of that aligned. All the fungus made me figure out what exactly I wanted to do one failure at a time.

Dana Kadwell

I love that. We actually just interviewed Larry Long Jr, and he talks about failure being an unsuccessful attempt at something, and I feel like you epitomized that so much that it’s not even though you felt like you failed. You tried something, and it didn’t work out that it wasn’t you were on the wrong path or that you were meant to quit owning or not eventually own your own business, but just meant that it was the wrong kind of business. I love that. 

Courtney Hopper

It’s kind of like using failure as, like, personal discovery to use failure to be like, okay, because I think it’s equally as helpful to know what you don’t like as it is to know what you do like so you can stay away from it.

Dana Kadwell

Yeah, I really love, and I love to curious if you had this same kind of experience, but you had this friend that told you like, hey, you need to go learn of maybe the business sense and whatnot, but you need to go learn how to do these things. I’ve heard a lot of entrepreneurs talk about, especially Solopreneurs, where these people in their life that, kind of speak into them and give them that advice. They call their board of directors. Right. Like, there are people that they trust. Do you still have that kind of support system in your life, and are you still open to that kind of feedback?

Abbie Nwaocha

Oh, yeah, she’s still there. It’s nice having that. She is someone who from the start that always has had a business. When we were in college, she used to do interior design, but she made these really interesting pillows for couches and stuff. So from the start, she always had her own business. When she got a full-time job at one of the tech companies, she still has her high level. So it was going to take somebody because she has the experience that I did not have as much. It hurts to hear it’s not a good spirit. I know she wouldn’t want to put me down unless I was definitely missing something. So I had to take her advice to the face. She can see it anyway. 

Courtney Hopper

Sounds like a good friend, a persistent friend. We like to ask our guests if they’ve had what we call an o shit moment when starting out like this particular company that you have now, like, where you’re worried that it wasn’t going to work out or like, you’re in over your head or you’re thinking, like, what have I done? So have you experienced that with your current company for Her Empire?

Abbie Nwaocha

I think the closest I have before I fully lost for Empire, I dipped my toes in by podcasting, like testing the market, creating content for my ideal clients, seeing what they responded to, and so I guess I had not gone all in because I only just represented to the marketing coach before the broadcasting community like that. But the first two oh, shit moments kind of made me get smarter. So in for Her Empire, I’ve not really had that. Because I was very cautious from the start. I think I feel sometimes I don’t feel it again. Like, be all confident when I bumped on the assembly line last year’s come down, like see how it works. It’s for this. I’ve been so cautious, which I guess before like me, but like, for the first time I went all in like a bit and see what happen.

Dana Kadwell

I love that. I think that that’s one of the things, too. We were very cautious when we opened up the Bradford. We did it in a way that if it failed, it wouldn’t ruin us financially, and we’ve always said that the reason why it took so long for Bradford to turn the profit we wanted was because we were so cautious. So like, well, if we go back, we would have dove in headfirst, and I feel like that’s true. But we only know what, you know, at the moment, and at the moment, we knew that the stakes are extremely high, and so in order for us to feel comfortable, we had to be cautious and give us that kind of I don’t know that your journey. 

Dana Kadwell

1. I hear that.

Abbie Nwaocha

Yeah, man. Thank you. I always say you make the best decision with the information given at the time, you know, given different information, you would make different decisions, but you can only make the best, and obviously, with you, you’re like, Okay, I have this track record of jumping all in and doing work that I don’t love doing. So I definitely think being more cautious might have been the better approach at that time for long-term success. I always say you make the best decision with the information given at the time. Given different information, you would make different decisions, but you can only make the best, and obviously, with you, you’re like, okay. I have this track record of jumping all in and doing work that I don’t love doing. So. I definitely think being more cautious might have been the better approach at that time for a long-term six out.

Dana Kadwell

Well, so you do a lot of consulting with other businesses, and how do you encourage your clients when they have hit a roadblock and their business journey? I feel like you are probably really great about using your own experiences and guiding them in a way.

Abbie Nwaocha

 I think there’s all kinds. But to me, the first one I think about our first roadblock was getting out of learning how to grow in a sustainable way, right? Like we knew that the business was there, and we knew that we could book it. But then it was also like adding to the team in a way that made sense. So we weren’t taxing ourselves too much. We just felt kind of stuck. You’re going to have this small company or you’re going to have this big company, but you can’t be in the middle, right? 

Abbie Nwaocha

Right.

Courtney Hopper

I like how you figure out the problem here for me. There’s the ocean or the water body. There’s the beach, there’s the hook. There’s a fisherman. Now, in this case, the ocean is like the market. It’s an online business. The base is whatever you put out there to get clients. The hook is how you deliver the clients and even the content you put out, how you support that, and the fisherman is you. So if, for example, if the fisherman does not show up consistently, he doesn’t go fishing. Well, he doesn’t catch a fish. If you show up and then there is no date, you’re not telling anybody about your business, telling them. Okay. This is a virtual event or fiscal event the product is corporate There’s a refund policy, there’s a refund policy, there’s so much it costs. So the benefits are the features. You don’t put out the base and tell them about stuff. Well, you will get nothing. So if you don’t get any client, then we brought a look, is the problem the ocean mind around, please? Am I putting my date out in the wrong audience? I’m putting out stock, but then nobody is responding. Well, my face is probably wrong. Then I have to figure out, what am I putting out there, and I can look at it from a different perspective. I got this from a relationship coach, like, how would somebody find you? So I was trying to have a church member who is a relationship coach, and then we’re having a conversation, and then somehow it became about me and my business. So she asked me, how would somebody find you? I said, my websites? How would they find the website? Google? Well, they search for the search for like marketing coaches in Kenya, the search for that will I find you on the first page, the different factors that go into ranking and like how I define review, now that’s the base. So like, your fish has to find a date, when it’s great that you have like your website, your podcast, your blog, your social media posts, they have to find that if you if your ocean is a Facebook group, in mind that people post frequently, so you’re basically just gonna go there. After a week, no one sees it. If your basis is, let’s say emails, people don’t always open the emails. I know, like still not offending materials, I get a mark as read, like, into habits, but like you have figured out the bait. So if you’re getting a fish, then the bait. So let’s say your basis is right, you figured out like this, this message tells everyone everything they need to know about my product, how I delivered this like somebody saw that post? How do they come on board? What’s the payment process? Like? How do I deliver that product or service? That’s the hook. So if I’m if people are interested, and then nothing is coming in, then I have to look at my hook. So if I have all of that right, and then Stuart is happening, then the problem is definitely me. Am I doing the best I can machinima consistently, I might tell people about me my value. So it gets to be a lot better. Am I motivated? How do I manage the business operations? Do I have enough time between operations and taking care of my clients, plus my time management task management? So for every like roadblock emits deaf fireplaces in the ocean, the bait the hook to the fisherman, but once you start eliminating things, and speaking, eventually you will learn that where the problem is, and you’ll fix it. So that’s how I would address a roadblock.

Courtney Hopper

That’s great. I love that. Because I feel like there are so many times you can look at a problem and you look at it and you’re like, the problem is X. This is the issue, and then when you really get down to it and you start digging deep into it and you start making those changes, you realize, well, actually, that wasn’t the problem. That was not the issue. That was working just fine. What was the issue? Was this over here? Yeah, that’s great advice. 

Abbie Nwaocha

Yeah, I know.

Dana Kadwell

And I do love that analogy. The problem is the ocean just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger every year. It’s just so much more accessible, so much more out there, and I’m still stuck in, like, 85 and the technology Wayne of, like, 85. That’s where I was comfortable. So I want to ask because you mentioned this a couple of times you had to learn how to take criticism. Right, and how did you go from somebody who really struggled with taking that criticism to be able to be more okay with it?

Abbie Nwaocha

So I think that is majestic. This, this is 2021. So in 2017, Kenya had an election. And I was working for one of the members of county assembly on the team, team members, and then the first over like, the tiniest thing I didn’t know and I know that like it’s just political campaign, like scandals coming out, left and right, like I could get away with fussing over the smallest thing. But at that point, I was like, we are all adults here. Like if you make the smallest mistake, you are only human, they will understand. That is not so lucky. With that bench, you have to refine everything to the smallest detail. It also meant that for every copy for every website design for every graphic for every video or every audio, it has to go to people before it went out. So I might think this is the bug when I can post it. If I did, like oh my god, I have done that. I have put out content that has been approved by the team and oh Jesus Christ. The content itself was fine, but the other approved it but nothing about it was offensive, but just not the right time to go out. I used like, okay, social media is empty like I just posted because I look like it’s dead. But then I didn’t actually realize that it’s small to me, because it doesn’t really affect me that much. But this is this guy’s career. This is not only his career, is everyone in the cafe there exists, because there’s a process, but I might also think that you know, this design is fine. But it’s the clients for their business, it has to match what they want, and it’s not about me, I have to follow this process. Even if I think that you know what, you’re almost everyone has a right to your opinions, you may be wrong, but opinions, that’ll do it. But ultimately, the client’s opinions, facets, everything else, and so I guess I have to like get off my high horse and realize that it’s not all about me, and I think I’m right, and maybe politically I’m right. But if that’s not what the client wants, if it doesn’t align with what they want, it doesn’t matter back to their schedule, their vision, then it’s wrong. So I have to learn that when it comes to other people, but my stuff people stuff doesn’t matter. My opinions are your thing, you and you’re a customer, I bet you’re gonna buy a shirt, it’s about them. Now, focus on that, it doesn’t mean that I’m a terrible person, and I’ve made a mistake as you acknowledge that I definitely did the wrong thing. But I have to put the focus on them, and prior to this plus me, me, and me. I’m good at this. I like this, I meet a fish that meet me. Like it’s what they want to be doing like you do the client cleanses illustrates tickets, give them what they want from your day, if you still feel depressed, go buy sushi and each affiliate out. Always helps you. Yeah, like at like, happiness for me right now. Despite my feelings India, like, my gonna die any smaller, still gonna be dead. So gonna wake up the next day, I’m still going to be fine. It’s their business. What they want is the most important thing, and that’s how I learned to buy up by making mistakes in a political campaign.

Courtney Hopper

Do you feel like a lot of that also relates to confidence? Sometimes I feel like I’m being ultra-sensitive about something, and I’m having a hard time taking criticism is because I’m not confident and necessarily what I’m doing, even though I feel like I’m good at what I do. But maybe that certain thing and I’ve tried really hard to be great at to be perfect, and then someone’s coming around and saying, well, actually, it’s not, and it’s like reaffirming in your mind that, like, okay, maybe you aren’t good enough. Whereas when I’m walking in super confidence, I’m very confident in what I’m doing, and someone comes and gives me criticism. I can look at it and say, it’s not about me. It has nothing to do with my abilities. This is just exactly. It has a bigger weight for you. You want something more specific. So do you feel like there was a confidence switch that helped with that as well?

Abbie Nwaocha

I experienced a similar thing in August. I went to this intelligence of Big Boss mobs, the Facebook group. Then I wanted to rebrand and the homeless did my design my website myself. So, I had put together this model and asked them to give me honest feedback like this looks like after it looked like the early 2000s It looks terrible It looks weird it looks kind of gaudy. Okay, let me tell you I was hurt, my confidence took a blow like my product design, my graphic design when it’s everything and I get them to justify it like I’ve not done design in a while and marketing my design skills went down that I took a big blue in that letter I was like well my tactics are different. So it’s telling myself that okay, you create maybe you have to like don’t ever go out of it and put more floor it with what you create. So like I have to reassure myself I’m good at this maybe for this particular situation. I need to change a bit more and give them what they want but like Erica used to go to design is still good at this. We’re gonna get better if you nail this then you’re you decide to get better than you get different design styles. Okay? Yeah, it’s confidence, man. I got hurt. 

Courtney Hopper

So what has been your favorite or your most rewarding part of running for her Empire?

Abbie Nwaocha

Like I love creating things. I get to make my website, gets my land. I did my new book like the neuro brand. I love. I love birthing the baby partner because they care so much Some points, but I watch his creative assets. It’s like, in my head, it came out. It’s out there, it might have as much as what I thought of like, I really had the best year. So what did you like the best find like this happened myself and see what I’ve created? It’s the best book ever.

Dana Kadwell

I love that so much. Yeah, I could feel it. I mean, you’re not sitting in this room with us, but I could feel it through the computer screen. Just that joy and energy, and I think that’s amazing. I love that.

Abbie Nwaocha

Thanks.

Dana Kadwell

Well, we would love to let our listeners know how they can get connected with you or learn more about “For Her Empire”.

Abbie Nwaocha

The best way to connect with me is by email or on the website. So on the website, you’re a bunch of forms, and whenever you fill a form, I get an email directly so I can respond to you. Go to my website at forherempire.com/contact so you can fill the contact form. Can I give a gift to your listeners by me?

Dana Kadwell

Yeah.

Abbie Nwaocha

So I’m super, as the biggest DIY person of tutorials free stuff, free courses so I’ve gone online to search for, like, lots of free stuff. Not one. I need one that actually makes sense. That is actionable. That is not like 70% traffic backstory, 10% actual in that, but actual stuff. Putting all of this together into a PDF. It’s supposed to be going to free courses, blogs, posts, articles online, covering marketing, sales, branding, personal development system. I think 50 of them are in one PDF. 

Dana Kadwell

Awesome.

Abbie Nwaocha

For anyone who is bigger, DIY wants to learn a bit more, you can reach yourself or for your hire someone. The PDF is my gift to you. You can get that at forherempire.com, email me and you probably get an email from me.

Dana Kadwell

Well, thank you so much. It’s so wonderful chatting with you today. I totally enjoyed it. 

Dana Kadwell

I know. Thank you. All right. Awesome. 

[Thanks, everyone, for gathering us today to talk about the Hustle. To learn more about Abby, her business, and her podcast, visit forherempire.com or follow her on Instagram at For Her Empire and make sure you check out our show notes for her free giveaway. This week we made a Virgin pineapple Mint Mojito and we hope you get a chance to make it, and cheers to being creative. To learn more about our Hustles, visit cndevents.com, anthemhouse.com, thebradfordnc.com, and hustleandgather.com or follow us on Instagram at canddevents, at AnthemHouse, at theBradford Nc and at HustleandGather, and if you like this show, be sure to subscribe and maybe with a rating and a review. This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I’m Dana and I’m Courtney, and we’ll talk to you next time on Hustle and Gather.