Jason Gillikin: All right, welcome to the Earfluence podcast, which is a podcast about podcasting from a podcast production company. I’m Jason Gillikin, CEO of Earfluence, and with me as always is Cee Cee Huffman, editor, producer, social media guru, doer of all things at Earfluence, Cee Cee what’s going on?

Cee Cee Huffman: Hello, everyone. I’m just trying to stay sane. We’re recording this the day after election day, so there’s still a lot going on in this world, so just trying to stay informed and not stressed, which is kind of impossible to do.

Jason Gillikin: Oh my gosh, yeah. It is 2:37 p.m. Eastern time, and, as of right now, we are not sure who the next president of the United States is.

I am hung over in many ways. I am hung over with over-stressing, I’m hung over with over-drinking, I’m hung over with overeating. Yeah.

Cee Cee Huffman: Me and you both.

Jason Gillikin: I did not feel good this morning. I was very, very close to canceling this podcast recording. How did you spend your Tuesday night, Cee Cee?

Cee Cee Huffman: I was downstairs with my roommate who’s not my roommate. We live in the same apartment building, but not in the same apartment. So, we were watching on a projector that’s – so it was as big as the wall, the election coverage, which was a little bit stressful, and a couple of White Claws. Really all there is to it.

Jason Gillikin: One thing that was, was fun is we brought our 8-year-old and 5-year-old, so we let them watch it until – well, until the 5-year-old fell on my lap at like 9:30 p.m. Last night, so that was neat. But, I don’t know if it was the right decision cause we added to their anxiety this week.

Cee Cee Huffman: Right. Well, that’s good. I can remember – I was talking to my friends. I was like, “I remember, you know, watching this when I was a kid like, sitting criss-cross applesauce in front of the TV, wondering ‘What is going on?'” and my friend’s girlfriend is from South Korea, and so she’s here in America studying, but we were explaining to her, you know, how the entire system works and trying to – and it was almost like a kid. She, I mean, she had no idea. She’d never seen an American election like this before. And she was like, “This doesn’t really make any sense.”

And we were like, “You’re not wrong.”

Jason Gillikin: No, it doesn’t. And I mean, this is a whole other topic for a podcast, but I just don’t understand the electoral college system. I don’t – it doesn’t make sense that my vote in North Carolina matters way more than somebody’s vote in New York, or somebody’s vote in California, or somebody’s vote in Alabama. Makes no, no sense to me at all.

It just doesn’t seem quite right. Anyway, like I said, I, I almost canceled. We were set to record on a completely different topic, which is how to repurpose podcasts into the best of’s and different ways of repurposing content, which is something for another day.

Cee Cee Huffman: Yeah, get excited because cause it’ll come eventually.

Jason Gillikin: It’ll come eventually, yeah, but my head was not in the right space for that, and so I almost canceled, but then I got an email from Alison Bennett at The Diversity Movement. She said, “We’re about to do a webinar in a couple of weeks called Holiday Headaches: Dealing with Relatives Who Just Don’t Get It.” And she said, “Can we do some podcast promos, like 30 to 60 second ad spots for it?” I was like, “Yeah, of course.” And then I’m like, ‘Wait a minute, here. We should do a whole episode on this, this will be fun. And so we got the moderator for that particular webinar, Jamie Ousterout, to come on the show. Hey Jamie, how are you?.

Jamie Ousterout: Great. How are you? Thanks so much for having me.

Jason Gillikin: Thank you for coming on.

Cee Cee Huffman: Yeah, thanks for joining us.

Jason Gillikin: Such a quick, quick turnaround here. and so Jamie, you are the head of client services at The Diversity Movement. You’ve been there for a month, and The Diversity Movement has one of the podcasts that we produced called Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox.

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I’ve been working with The Diversity Movement, morbid consulting format for the past several months, and then just absolutely loved what they were doing and was able to join full time October 1st. So, it’s been a month officially, but much longer unofficially, and I’m so happy to be able to work with that great group and to talk with you all today. You know, following the election, I hear what you say about having a little bit of a hang over in more ways than one and was watching it last night and finally just had to go to bed, so.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah, what time did you finally go to bed last night?

Jamie Ousterout: I think we decided around midnight to go to bed and woke up hoping that we would have some news, and, of course, I knew we wouldn’t. But, you know, it was, I was a little bit hopeful. I did just see that apparently Biden has won Wisconsin, so.

Jason Gillikin: Yep. That’s a big one, and Michigan should be next, I would imagine. So, if he can win those, it’s probably going to be him as our next president given – well, not withstanding any shenanigans that’s a, that go on legally.

Cee Cee Huffman: Yes. Knock on wood for how simple that sounds.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I probably went to bed around 1:30 last night, and then did not know what was going on at about seven this morning when, when the kids were getting up. So, let’s talk about the webinar, Holiday Headaches: Dealing with Relatives Who Just Don’t Get It – and that is an amazing title for a webinar. So tell us like, how did this idea come about from The Diversity Movement?

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, especially around the holidays, we’re often with family, extended family, you know, folks that we might not see throughout the year on a regular basis.

And a lot of times different topics come up around the dinner table – at Thanksgiving, at Christmas – and we want to provide expert advice on how to handle those conversations. So, I’m the moderator of it. I don’t have all the tips and tricks, and I’m really looking forward to learning all of the tips and tricks from our great panel of experts that we’ve been able to pull together.

But really, you know, politics comes up, religion comes up, so how can we have productive conversations about these topics that don’t turn into fighting matches, and that don’t turn into people throwing mashed potatoes at one another. So, I think it’s going to be a really, really great, webinar, and I know I’m personally looking forward to learning a lot, and I know that we’ll be able to share a lot with our audience that tunes in.

Jason Gillikin: That’s awesome. So, who is, who is on the panel?

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah, well, we will have with us, Jenna Wilson, who’s the founder of Career Civility, and she’s an enterprise account manager at Glassdoor. We’ll also have Ashley Herndon who is a marriage and family therapist, and we’ll have Eric Galten, who is co-owner of Lakeside Mediation Center and professor, and he wrote Restoring Civil Discourse in an Overheated Society: Returning to the Art of Disagreeing without Being Disagreeable, which I just love that title because I think we all, especially now with everything that’s going on, it’s very easy to get hot, very quickly, to start shouting rather than, you know, taking a moment, taking a breath, disagreeing, but not being disagreeable. So, I’m really looking forward, especially to talking with Eric about my different questions that I have on how I can disagree without being disagreeable.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. I mean, what a fantastic topic, Cee Cee, what are your holidays like? Do you, do you bring up religion and politics or is it something that’s avoided?

Cee Cee Huffman: Yeah, absolutely not definitely avoided. My family is really small, so it’s just like, my grandparents and then my mom has her brother, and so he has two kids and his wife, and then my mom has me and my brother. And so we all are always pretty close, so it doesn’t seem too different when we get together as a family, but we definitely do have very different views. And it’s just a lot easier to not talk about it then to know that we’re probably not going to get to a healthy place by the end of it. Like, it’s not going to be a productive conversation – and it definitely has happened, and it was never productive. But, I don’t know, I have a hard time myself not wanting to talk about it just because I feel like we should all talk about it so we can grow together, but sometimes that doesn’t end up the way that it goes.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure that’s something that will, will be brought up in the webinar here in a couple of weeks. Jamie, what about your family? At, at the Thanksgiving table with all the cousins, with all the uncles, do you bring up religion and politics?

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah. And you know, it’ll be interesting to see this year because of COVID. I don’t know, it might end up just being me and my husband. So we may not, at least for Thanksgiving, need to put too many of these tips and tricks to use, but in the past, definitely. It’s been either a with my family, so my sister and brother-in-law, her children, my parents as well as an aunt and uncle, or with my husband’s family, and he has a pretty extended family. His mom is one of eight children, so they’ll get lots of aunts and uncles together and cousins and, you know, from all different, all different backgrounds. And so, there’s definitely always an interesting conversation, so I don’t know what’s going to happen yet this year, but, in the past, I generally also try and steer clear, like you Cee Cee, of these conversations, but, you know, there comes a point where both my husband and I have talked about this – you sometimes need to say something.

Cee Cee Huffman: Right.

Jamie Ousterout: You need to address some of these microaggressions, you need to address some of these things the family members are saying, and I think there’s a way to do it. And I’ve been lucky with The Diversity Movement to work with so many great experts who have shared with me how to have some of these conversations, you know, and asking questions about why do you think that?

And, you know, tell me a little bit more about your perspective, rather than just saying “you’re wrong” and starting to name, call, which is more, I would say in my nature to do. So, I I’m trying to learn and get better already, but I know that the webinar will help me hopefully with some more tools.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. Explain a microaggression. What could be a, a microaggression in a, in a politics conversation?

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah. So, I think a lot of times people say things based on how they grew up or how they were raised, and they don’t necessarily mean to come across as perhaps being as offensive, but it’s still is offensive.

S o, you know, for instance, “Oh, well they’re, you know, Black people and so, they’re not working as hard.” It just grates on you, and sometimes you have to step in and say something.

Cee Cee Huffman: That’s kind of the place where I always find myself. And it’s hard because you like, this is your family like, you love them, and so it’s so upsetting when you know that they have these kinds of tendencies or say these things that could be offensive, and you want to help and you feel like you can’t get anywhere. That’s my problem, so that’s what I’m really looking forward to learning is learning how to do it and not get so frustrated in the, in the case, too, ’cause that’s definitely my issue.

Jason Gillikin: And it’s one of those things, too. Where can you really change somebody’s mind on, you know, what they believe in there? M y, my wife has something that she, found something that she shares on social media all the time, and it’s a pie chart and there’s, there’s, you know, three different colors – or two different colors. It’s people whose opinion you can change with your social media post, and then people you can’t change. And it, the, the pie chart is all just one big color because you can’t change anybody’s mind on, on social media, anyway – it seems like, but, you know what Jamie, I think it’s, yes, those microaggressions do need to be called out.

Now if you’re going to change somebody’s mind, that’s a different story. But you know, to, to be able to like, “Well, here’s the other side, and so that you can have a better understanding of it.” And then, you know, “Here’s why you could be hurting somebody’s feelings by saying those things.” You know, maybe that’s why we need to point out those, those microaggressions.

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah, I agree, Jason, and I think it’s too, you know, it’s hard – you’re right – it is hard to influence folks on social media, but I have found having a conversation, you know, with parents or siblings has been helpful. In fact, I had an experience recently where, you know, there’s – The Diversity Movement does this “Say this, not that,” and one of the terms is “uppity,” and “uppity” is not a term that you should use. It has connotations where folks would call Black people that after slavery and really just not an appropriate word to use. And I had used it once because I grew up with this language and actually someone, one of my colleagues pointed out and said, “You know, you’re really not supposed to use that, and here’s why.” And then a few weeks later – and I of course said “Oh, I’m so sorry. Thank you for calling this out, bringing it to my attention.” And then a few weeks later, I actually, my, my parents, my mom said it and I said, “Hey, you know what, mom? You’re not actually supposed to use that term. I just learned this myself, but let me share with you.

And she was actually very receptive to it and, you know, didn’t realize and they then said, “Well, yeah, you know, grandma used to say that, too.” It’s, you know, one of those things that just unfortunately gets perpetuated down through the generations, but being able to call that out, I think was, was a good thing.

And I think I was able to do it in a appropriate way, that actually, you know, got, got through. So, to your point, Jason, I think there are, there are times when it is important to say something and in the right tone and, and more about educating folks rather than chastising them.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah, and some of those terms, I had no idea that there were racist connotations.

Cakewalk is another one. You hear that in sports all the time, and I had no idea that it, it, it came from slaves doing a walk or a, a dance for their masters, to try to win cake. It’s just unbelievable that some of these words that become the language that we’re using, we don’t know what’s behind it.

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah. Yeah. And even with, with the word “uppity,” it was in this old movie that I was watching with my parents, one of those old black and white movies, and they said it a couple of times. I said, “There it is right there, again in our society,” and it just keeps coming up, and people don’t always take a moment to stop and think about the, the origins of the words.

And I’m an English major, and so I love words, and I’m always thinking about, you know, the, and a history major. So history and English, always trying to think about ‘What is the reason for this?’ And there was just so many things that I wasn’t aware of until, you know, even recently. And so I think it is important to start to call that out and just to do it in the appropriate way.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. So you mentioned COVID changing holiday plans, probably, for a lot of us, you know, it’s not going to be as big of a gathering this year as, as it has in the past, probably. So, you know, maybe we won’t have those heated types of conversations as much; however, what I’m seeing is the heated conversations are not necessarily at the dinner table right now, they’re on social media. So, will this webinar cover, you know, the, you know, how to handle things on social media as well?

Jamie Ousterout: That’s a great question. And as the moderator, I will have to ask the panelists if they can address it, because you’re absolutely right. There are so many folks that, you know, even family members that they might be on – I’m not actually on Facebook, I couldn’t handle it – but Instagram, Twitter, you know, and family members are there and making comments. And, so I do think that that’s an important thing, and I love that idea, jason, I’ll be, I’ll be sure that it does get covered because you’re right there – it would be a lot easier to just ignore things this year with COVID, but there’s probably a real opportunity to address some of these things on social media or say, “Hey, let’s take this offline, let me give you a call.”

Jason Gillikin: And you know, I just don’t like that I, I like some people in my family less because of their political views. Like it’s, it’s not fair to me, it’s not fair to them, it’s not fair to the relationship that we’ve cultivated over however many decades, right? Yeah, you know, you see what their views are and I’m like, “I, I, I don’t, I can’t get behind this,” and you know, it, it really clouds, you know, what, what, the way I think about them. And Jamie, you’re probably wise to not be on Facebook, especially right now.

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah. Yeah. And Jason, what you just said resonates so much with me, and you know, trying to say and try to do this myself. If I love them, they’re family, but there are certain times where it’s just, I don’t want to, I don’t want to be faced with that in this moment, so let me take a break, let me walk away from it and then maybe, maybe come back. But yeah, really what you said resonates so much. I think it resonates with a lot of people.

I think a lot of people, you know, and, and one of my things that I really struggle with, I’ll just share vulnerably and personally is that, you know, I was raised with certain values and to see other folks not necessarily agree with those values within my, my families is really hard, and I’m really struggling with it, which is why I’m so excited about this webinar.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. Cee Cee, you’re on Facebook. How do you handle it?

Cee Cee Huffman: I am. Well, funny enough, pretty much none of my family is on Facebook. Pretty much none of my family is really on social media that much like my cousins are on Instagram, and that’s kind of it, my uncle is, though, on my Twitter, and that has gotten us into some trouble a couple of times, because we’re on very opposite sides of the spectrum.

And so, just one retweet somehow he’ll, you know, he’ll end up replying to them or to me or something like that. And then I just have to be like, “OK, uncle, like, let’s talk about it because I don’t want either of us to be mad at each other, but I mean, we just, we can try to agree, or we can just not and decide it’s time to move on.”

My – that’s probably good for me and my mom, that my family is not on Facebook because my mom has, I will say pretty fire Facebook. She’s got a very good feed, lots of great memes, very good content. And I don’t think they would, I mean, it would just be another issue. So yeah, I luckily a lot of my family’s not on there, so I don’t worry too much about that because it feels more of like a safe space because of it.

Jason Gillikin: But you know, maybe, maybe your family is not on Facebook, but you have friends, that don’t, that don’t believe the same things as you. So, you know, are you, are you blocking them? Are you unfriending? Like what’s, what’s your strategy with that?

Cee Cee Huffman: I, whenever I find myself in a situation where I think I could productively say something I try to, but typically it ends up being, you know, so me against all of their friends who also agree with them. And we kind of talked about this when we did, we did an episode on The Social Dilemma, how, like, you start to see more people like you in your feed, because it’s what you like.

But I grew up outside – I always tell people I’m from Raleigh, I grew up outside of Raleigh, kind of in this place called Archers Lodge, which was like, not even a town or limit or anything when I was younger. And so, it’s like a pretty rural kind of country area, then went to high school at an arts school in downtown Raleigh, and then went to UNC-Chapel Hill.

So, I’ve had a very different experience after, you know, leaving that area than a lot of my friends have, and they tend to have – we tend have different values because of it. So, there’s definitely a lot on there, but unless I can see a way where it might be constructive, then I just let it go.

Jason Gillikin: That’s smart to, to let it go.

Jamie Ousterout: You’re so right, Cee Cee, about you with social media, just building, it’s almost like an echo chamber of, “Well, everyone sees the same thing,” and so when it comes to things like election say, well, everyone I know voted in a certain way.

Cee Cee Huffman: Right.

Jamie Ousterout: And it’s just because that’s what you see on your social media feed, and it’s not necessarily reality, which I think is a really important thing to keep in mind for everyone to make sure that you’re getting different perspectives and watching different news channels, reading different newspapers so that you kind of understand the full picture rather than just your myopic view.

Jason Gillikin: That’s right. Yeah. And I, you know, I voted for Biden, Cee Cee voted for Biden. Jamie, you don’t have to –

Jamie Ousterout: I voted for Biden.

Jason Gillikin:  OK. So, Jamie, you’re the, you’re the same, but about 50% of the country voted for, for Trump and, you know, they have – they, for whatever reason, you know, they, it could be specific issues. You know, maybe it’s, maybe it’s about being pro-life, maybe it’s about taxes.

It could also be about fear, right? You know, fear of losing power basically as, as the, the white majority, let’s say. But, you know, the, the fact is 50% did vote for Trump, or around 50% did vote for Trump. And so, there are going to be these conversations and, and how can we, you know, lovingly, respectfully bring people together.

I mean, that’s, that’s going to be such a challenge in the next couple of months here regardless of who ends up taking this, taking this election here. So yeah, I mean, this is going to be a super important webinar, Jamie. What else can we expect from, from the webinar itself?

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah. I mean, I’m excited because I think it’s just going to be bringing together such unique perspectives.

So, we have the marriage and family therapist , we have the professor and, you know, mediation center expert. And so I think it’s just going to be really nice to get different ideas and points of view, and it should be pretty interactive. It should be, you know, more of a dialogue like this is where we kind of pose, I pose questions, and they answer, and then people piggyback on one another’s thoughts, so I’m looking forward to it. I think it’ll be a really dynamic conversation.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. All right. Well, Jamie, for you, is there anything that you can think of off the top of your head that has worked, and then anything you can think of that has not worked?

Jamie Ousterout: Yes. Immediately, I thought one. I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but for me, sometimes I have the tendency to quickly jump and say, “Well, no, you’re wrong,” and that doesn’t help. No one wants to be told that they’re wrong, myself included, you both – no one wants that. So instead, it really is focusing more on, “Well, tell me more, you know, coming at it from a place of curiosity.”

Cee Cee Huffman: My mom always says you win when you ask questions.

Jamie Ousterout: That’s right, that’s a great, that’s a great mom-ism, but it is true. And it’s, it’s not saying “Why do you think that?” But it’s “Well, why do you think that?” And that’s definitely something that I’ve learned a lot from. Jackie Ferguson, who’s the head of content at The Diversity Movement, she’s very good at posing these questions, and I’ve been trying to learn as much as I can from her and bring it to my own personal life. So, I have made mistakes in the past, or I say, you know, almost resort to name calling. Nobody that’s, that’s such childish behavior, so taking a step back, taking a deep breath, asking why, being truly curious, and then afterward, I can still disagree and just say “That’s not at all in line with my view,” but at least I’ve tried to understand and try to make it, you know, a meaningful dialogue as opposed to just resorting to a shouting match.

Jason Gillikin: I mean, that is a great one, simply asking questions. And, a lot of times, and maybe I, I probably do this the wrong way, because my, sometimes my goal in asking questions and digging in is to make them sound stupid. Like, you know, to, you know, to make them answer their question, to answer my question in a way that that is like, just, there’s no way that could be correct, or, you know, there’s no way that can sound good. But, to ask genuine questions on why do you feel that way? And that, that is such an open-ended, great question to ask, you know, and, and being open to what they have to say, and truly listening. That, that is a, a wonderful tip, Jamie.

Jamie Ousterout: Well, I credit Jackie with it, so – and I I’ve been trying to put into practice, and a lot of it is in the tone. It’s not, “Well, why do you think that,” but “Why do you think that?”

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. Can you tell Jackie has a, a, an 18-year-old daughter? Yeah. She’s been asking those types of questions a lot. All right. Well, Cee Cee, any, any tips from, from you that, you know, from, from your perspective, or is there anything that has worked disastrously for you?

Cee Cee Huffman: I will say, for me, I have a really difficult time when I have to have these conversations because of the way that politics is so connected to the media now.

And so, because I graduated – or I have a journalism degree, and my family that doesn’t believe the same thing that I believe is quick to just kind of dismiss me as somebody who’s a part of like the liberal media who is just wanting to tell one side of the story. And so, there are some times where that has just been disastrous. And that’s upsetting because it’s like, “Well, this is something that I really am passionate about and really care about, but you can’t just dismiss me because of, you know, this one topic. But I mean, I think I, I need to keep it more to a personal level when I have these conversations, unless it’s to like – I try and talk more about morals and less about general political things, because otherwise.

I feel like it’s – for me personally, I’m quick to not get listened to that way.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. That’s tough. When a comeback can always just be, well that’s fake news. And, you know, you can argue till you’re blue in the face about why, you know, you know, why, why that’s not fake news, but when somebody has that particular opinion, it’s very hard to for them to get beyond that or to get past that, I should say.

Cee Cee Huffman: And it’s something I try to explain, too, like I, let me tell you everything that I went to school for, and let me tell you everything that I was trained to do and what I learned is the way that a newsroom works so I can tell you that these people learned exactly what I did. They, they’re practicing exactly what I’ve like trained, to practice.

And so, I normally try and put myself more in that situation, which it helps and it hurts at the same time. It helps them because they’re like, “OK, well, yeah, maybe these people on the news are kind of like Cee Cee, you know, and “Cee Cee is great in other ways, XYZ, whatever,” but then sometimes when they’re mad at them, they’re like, “Oh, well, Cee Cee’s just like, you know, the people on the news.” So it’s a, it’s a tough situation. It’s very unique, but it is also still very tough.

Jason Gillikin: Yep. Yeah. And we all have that in our heads where the other side is, to a degree, villainous. Right, right. And they’re, they’re just, they’re, they’re not great people and they have bad motives in, you know, not helping out this country.

So anyway, that’s, that can’t be right, so we need  to figure out how we can all come together, and hopefully we have a president, coming up in the next couple of months here, that is willing to bring us all together.

Cee Cee Huffman: Yeah, I’m going to knock on wood for that one again.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah. So Jamie, let me give you some space here and talk about anything that else that’s on your mind about this particular webinar or this particular topic, then I’ll ask you for a, for call to action.

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah. I mean, to me, I, I think it’s exactly what you just said, Jason, of let’s all come together. You know, we have so much divisiveness in our world and our country right now, so we can only get past that by working together and trying to see both sides of things.

So I’m hopeful that, we, as The Diversity Movement, can do that, that this webinar can help other folks do that as well, so yeah.

Jason Gillikin: All right. That’s awesome, and so where can people sign up for this webinar?

Jamie Ousterout: Yeah. So if you go to www.thediversitymovement.com/holiday-headaches, you can sign up for this wonderful webinar. It’s also going to be all over our social media. If you’re on our email list or you want to be part of our email list, we’ll be promoting it there as well. But it’s www.thediversitymovement.com/holiday-headaches.

Jason Gillikin: All right. And it’s November 19th at what time?

Jamie Ousterout: It is November 19th at 12:00 PM Eastern.

Jason Gillikin: Okay, great.

Cee Cee Huffman: I’ll be there.

Jason Gillikin: I will be there too. And we’re going to put some promos out on, on some of the podcasts that we produce here so that we can get the word out because this is something that everybody needs right now.

Cee Cee Huffman: Yes. No matter what side you might be on, everyone can use this webinar.

Jason Gillikin: Yeah, exactly. All right, Jamie, before we let you go, give us a podcast that you are listening to, that you recommend, that’s one of your favorites.

Jamie Ousterout: Oh, I like this. Well, I just listened to Oprah’s Book Club Podcast. I think it was her first one, and it was on the book by Isabel Wilkerson, “Cast.” And she had the author on and she brought on lots of other folks to ask questions of the author. And I listened to it on a drive back from Charleston, South Carolina, so I had a lot of time and it was, it was a really, impactful listen.

Jason Gillikin: Nice. Cee Cee, any new podcast recommendations from you?

Cee Cee Huffman: Not right now. I’ve got nothing.

Jason Gillikin: Mind’s on other things. You know what I’ve been listening to to get my mind off of all this stuff? Office Ladies, It’s Jenna, what’s her name? Jenna Fisher? Is that right? From The Office and Angela Kinsey from The Office, and they go over episode by episode and give insight information on it.

It’s really great. All right. Well, Jamie Ousterout from The Diversity Movement, thank you so much for coming on the Earfluence Podcast here.

Jamie Ousterout: Thank you so much for having this great discussion.

Jason Gillikin: All right. Well, this has been the Earfluence podcast. I’m Jason Gillikin, and we’ll see you next time.