Donald Thompson: Hey everyone. Welcome to Diversity Beyond the Checkbox podcast. I’m your host, Donald Thompson, diversity and inclusion consultant and CEO of Walk West. On this podcast, we share diverse perspectives from leaders in their industries and we unpack why diversity and inclusion is not only the right thing to do, it’s absolutely imperative to the growth of your company. Essentially, why D&I is beyond the checkbox. Before we get to the show today, for more diversity and inclusion content, including articles, podcasts, and our online course that I’m super proud of and is going to be a game changer for diversity inclusion in business, head over to www.thediversitymovement.com. One of the people who was instrumental in the creation of The Diversity Movement is my guest today, Jackie Ferguson, director of multicultural programming at Walk West, and this will actually be my last time hosting this podcast cause I’ll be handing over the reigns to Jackie.

She’s having all these great conversations with diversity leaders as a part of the diversity movement, so it’s perfect for her to share those with our audience.

Welcome, Jackie. How are you doing today?

Doing great, thank you for having me.

Well, you’re welcome. It’s going to be fun. We’re going to talk a little bit about The Diversity Movement. Why don’t you start out by just giving a little bit about your background and your new role as the director of multicultural programming for Walk West.

Jackie Ferguson: Sure. So as the multicultural director of programming at Walt West, I make sure that we have a diversity and inclusion initiative and that that’s reflected throughout everything from our digital assets, like our website, through the policies and the job descriptions at Walk West. In addition, I’m also working on writing a course and the primary writer for a course entitled Diversity Beyond the Checkbox. And that’s a five module course that helps people develop a cultural competency for diversity and also helps them be able to create a diversity initiative at their own organization. And also talks about how to market to diverse audiences as well.

Donald Thompson: Well, that sounds like a full plate.

So let’s dive in in. Let’s talk a little bit about The Diversity Movement.  How did that concept come about?

Jackie Ferguson: That started from a conversation that you and I actually had around, what should we be doing with diversity and creating a course, which we built out around that particular asset as a business.

And we created a movement, what we’re hoping is going to be a movement. Basically what we want to accomplish with that is make sure that people know the benefits of diversity and how it impacts not only them personally, but businesses.

Donald Thompson: One of the things that I’ve been really interested to get your perspective, if I’m going to the website and I see the diversity movement, and then I look at the course, the online course, what’s the difference?

Jackie Ferguson: So the course is an online self-guided course that helps you develop a cultural competency and helps you blueprint how you would create an initiative around diversity and inclusion at your organization. The Diversity Movement is more about how you think about things on a personal level. The ability to share new perspectives with others, and participating in individual challenges and activities that help grow your own personal competency, and in how you interact with the world.

Donald Thompson: So, thanks for that. One of the things that is interesting, when I looked through the site, and obviously as a part of the team, there’s one view, but then I go there and I look as somebody that wants to push through diversity in my organization.

So tell me about some of the things that are available on the site that helped me lead a D&I initiative, right, in my company.

Jackie Ferguson: Right, so in addition to the course, there’s an insights page, which has, blogs, that offer different perspectives. There’s this podcast of course, and then there’s white papers and eBooks.

We’ll also be having, some micro videos on that site as well that can give you quick learning on a multitude of topics, and we’ll be developing that soon so we’re excited about that.

Donald Thompson: So, that sounds powerful. So you’re integrating video and then you’re giving me bite size, kind of snackable content while I get familiar with what you guys are doing.

Jackie Ferguson: I would say there was over a thousand hours put into the research and writing while I was earning my Certified Diversity Executive designation.

We had a lot of people review the initial course modules that included diversity practitioners, business leaders, curriculum experts, marketing professionals. And then we did a version two before we sent it into beta. And then we made several changes from the beta feedback as well. So it’s been quite a journey over the past six or seven months to get that ready, for public distribution.

Donald Thompson: That’s great. And one of the things that lets people remember, understand is that anything that you’re going to produce of high quality, there’s a backstory behind it. There’s a lot of effort. There’s a lot of late nights. There’s a lot of extra effort that goes into making anything that is substantial and very successful.

So in addition to the research you actually went to, I think it was Indianapolis, where we all were obviously, right? But tell me a little bit about the training and the education that – and why that was important for you.

Jackie Ferguson: So I wanted to make sure that I had as much competency as possible by the time I finished this course. And so I did quite a bit of research on different programs that could offer credentials around diversity and inclusion, and I found that the Institute of Diversity Certification had a very comprehensive program.

Signed up for that and took that class. It was a three day in person class and then a very thick book of information that covered everything from unconscious bias to supplier diversity to implementing programs in your own organization. And so it took quite a bit of time to get through that book and take and pass the test, and then we submitted a project, which we used the course as our project, and it was well received. So we’re excited about that.

Donald Thompson: That is, that’s powerful. Four of your, well, not four of three of us went to take the course and have all gotten our CDE certification, so Certified Diversity Executive. And so that was Sharon McCloud, Kurt Merriweather, obviously, Jackie Ferguson and myself. You passed the test the first time. It took me a couple of tries to get through it so I can vouch for the fact that it was not an easy win. It took a lot of work and effort. It was really, it was like, it was close to three hour exam and it was proctored and you had to go into this facility and they took all your keys and all that stuff, but it was well worth the effort because it gave a great foundation for where we need to head in terms of our diversity  expertise.

So Jackie, as I reviewed the course results that we’ve gotten so far. It’s had a very successful beta, close to 50 people participated in the beta.

The overall rating out of the beta was 4.6, which is tremendous. There are several business opportunities with organizations that have 14,000 members in their nonprofit, 500 employees for a software company that we’re working with. So the reviews are very good with the quality of the course and what you’ve done. One of the things that  I’m interested in personally as well as, you know, for those that are listening, why did you choose D&I as your next business path forward?

Jackie Ferguson: Well, I like to say that I was born into D&I rather than I got into D&I, being from a multiracial, multigenerational, white collar, blue collar, North and South household, I got to hear unfiltered perspectives from people with different life experiences, real time. And it helped shape a broader view of how I thought about different topics so that I wasn’t as narrow-minded in perspectives. I always had multiple points of view growing up.

Donald Thompson: So you mentioned, kind of, how you grew up, your experiential piece, but I want to dig into one piece that you didn’t mention if you’re comfortable sharing about it, but you have a neurodiversity that also shapes your work life and your personal life and how you learn information. How did that come into play when you were building this course?

Jackie Ferguson: So I am dyslexic and that has been a little bit of a struggle in reading and writing, and I transpose numbers, when I read them as well.

I didn’t allow that to deter me and, in fact, even my mom didn’t know that I was dyslexic until after I was published with the national diversity council and, and wrote it in the article. A lot of people view it as a disability and a setback, and I just didn’t want anything to deter me from being able to be successful. And I think that a lot of people to view that as negative rather than an interesting cognitive difference that allows for different levels of creativity. So I didn’t want it viewed as negative, so I didn’t share it very broadly. But, having done this research actually made me understand dyslexia on a different level and how so many very successful people have dyslexia and the creativity and the different ways to think around problems has been really interesting to learn as I did the research for this course.

we wanted to do to move out of our siloed idea of ‘this is a great course,’ was to make sure that we got feedback from a variety of people.

So we enlisted some diversity and inclusion practitioners, business leaders, marketing leaders. We talked to people from different and diverse demographics to make sure that the course resonated with different people. We wanted to make sure that we included what was necessary for it to be comprehensive and also enjoyable.

You know, a lot of courses are the slide by slide, click through, and those are not fun. So we wanted to make sure that it was more interactive, and we used a lot of different mediums from video to slides and texts to audio. And then there are some exercises there and some short quizzes to make sure that you retain that information from the module.

And, it’s been well received. So we’re really thankful for that.

Donald Thompson: That’s really powerful. So in companies, D&I is now top of mind, and so there are a lot of organizations that want to do better. The struggle is how to do better. So one of my questions would be, when you’re dealing with neurodiversity issues or things about an individual in your company that are unseen, what can companies do better to create that good quality environment for everybody to feel like they belong?

Jackie Ferguson: So one thing that you want to include in a diversity program is that you understand the different types of diversity. Dyslexia and neurodiversity is certainly one that you don’t see. Another thing is with disabilities, there’s autoimmune disease and chronic pain that you also don’t see, but as you talk about diversity in the workplace, acknowledging these types of diversity and disabilities and cognitive differences allows people to feel more comfortable in sharing that they, are experiencing that or that’s something that they live with, and also sharing as a company that you’re able to make accommodations and wanting to make accommodations for these folks I think is important. And again, it’s just about calling it out and recognizing it and acknowledging it. And I think that’ll make people feel more comfortable in sharing.

Donald Thompson: That’s phenomenal. I mean, I think the takeaway that I’m getting as a business leader and somebody that is working to be more impactful is really creating the awareness that you truly do care.

One of the things as we looked at, building out the course from a business standpoint. So one, diversity and inclusion is the right thing to do. And creating equity for people to have the same opportunity is important and impactful. Why now?

Jackie Ferguson: Yeah, great question. So I think that it’s always been important. You know, it’s always been something that needed to be addressed. I think that because the world is really changing and becoming more and more diverse, there’s more of a need for it. You know, in years past, the majority group, was, you know, straight, white, Christian, middle-class, and now the world is becoming more diverse and more culturally diverse and people appreciate that diversity more. And so the way that we do business, the way that we employ people, the way that we market to people, has to change with the cultural changes.

Donald Thompson: No, that’s, that’s really powerful.

One of the things I want you to amplify again is like, Walk West is a marketing and advertising organization. It’s a consultancy. What in the world is Walk West doing, creating a D&I course and making that important, putting three people on it full time and making that commitment. Why does that make any sense?

Jackie Ferguson: Well, you know, as I said, because society changes, marketing is changing. So the way that you know, we marketed 25 years ago is totally different from how we need to market today. Multicultural marketing is very important. A message that resonates with one group, may not resonate with another group.

The needs and habits of one group are not the same as another group. So between the cultural diversity that is becoming more and more prevalent in our society, and then the entrance of generation Z into the workplace and also the marketplace. The way we market has to change, and I think that Walk West having a D&I program is on the cutting edge of that. And more people are realizing more businesses are realizing that that’s an important part of sustainable business.

Donald Thompson: Oh, that’s fantastic. So one of the things that people struggle with is ‘alright, diversity is good, checkbox,’ right? I should have a diversity champion check box. How should people go about choosing their diversity champion?

What are some of the characteristics of that person? What are some of the things that organization these students support that person so that it’s beyond the checkbox and give that person or team the opportunity to really succeed?

Jackie Ferguson: One of the reasons, just to start at the beginning, the reason why we named this podcast and the course Beyond the Checkbox is because that’s how people think about diversity often, and you really have to go beyond that, to understand and implement a program that includes people, includes thought processes, includes making people feel like they belong. And so a lot of times, the person that’s selected as the diversity champion is the, you know, culturally diverse person in the organization. So again, it’s a check box. You know, you’re culturally diverse, you must, you know, prioritize diversity.

So you’re our diversity champion. But really, there’s a lot that goes into being able to successfully implement a diversity and inclusion program in an organization, and it requires a lot more research and learning and education than just being of a culturally diverse group. And so, that position needs to be very carefully considered.

They need to have access to their C-suite. They need to be passionate about what diversity and inclusion is and what it requires because it’s difficult work. You know, it’s not always well received by every person because people don’t understand necessarily how it can benefit them and how it can benefit their organization.

And so it’s a difficult job sometimes. It’s certainly well worth it, but, you know, just like any type of change, diversity and inclusion initiatives are sometimes met with resistance. So it needs someone that’s strong and someone that prioritizes the work.

Donald Thompson: So one of the things that, you know, as we think about diversity inclusion, you know, a lot of my middle age white friends, and I’ve heard this more than once, ‘I don’t want to be blamed for all of the undesirable behavior in our country. It wasn’t me.” Right? That’s one thought process. And then the other one, and I’ll let you speak to both, “why does this even matter? I’m not racist.” How do you bring people, and in particular when the majority of leadership roles in our country are still handled by white men.

That means that in order for a major shift in D&I and equity and inclusivity, that means you’ve got to have champions that are in that demographic, right? They’re in that group. How do you achieve that in your diversity programming?

Jackie Ferguson: Well, the way to start to understand that, what’s in it for me. So from an organizational leadership, if you’re talking to a leader.

They have to understand how it benefits their business, how it benefits them. You know, people from a majority demographic often, you know, have that question. but really the stronger that you make your business. Whether you’re in leadership or not, the more opportunities are available to you, the more benefits are available to you because stronger business gives you better benefits, more opportunity for raise and promotion. So wherever you are on the spectrum of leader to, you know, middle management to intern. A diverse and inclusive organization allows for more innovation, creativity allows people to feel more like they belong, which reduces turnover in an organization and the healthier a business is the more opportunity there is across the board for everyone.

Donald Thompson: Oh, that’s a powerful answer and I appreciate that because one of the things that we’re trying to do with this entire program is bring more people into the fold, right? We don’t want to create a diversity program that excludes people. And that’s been one of the big things that you’ve shared with me and taught me, as we’ve learned and gone through this journey together.

And, you know, it’s, it’s interesting. you know, another thing I want to touch on and then I want to see if there’s any questions you’d like to bounce some ideas off off of me as we talk and transition the show is that people typically think of the big three, right? Race, gender, sexual orientation. What are some of the other slices of diversity that aren’t as talked about but equally significant in terms of this diversity journey?

Jackie Ferguson: So I think one of the types of diversity that is being talked about now is generational diversity. We talked earlier about the entrance of gen Z. So that’s a big one because what they prioritize, what their habits are, are different from millennials, and different from gen Xers like myself.

That’s one type. Another type is neurodiversity. So, I think that’s coming more and more to the fore. It used to be thought of as a disability rather than a cognitive difference that allows for a different way of thinking about things and problem solving. Neurodiverse people have a different level of creativity oftentimes, and they’re great problem solvers because they have to solve problems. If you’re dyslexic, like myself, you’re solving problems every day and how you interpret, words and numbers. And it’s important to make sure that you give those people a spot on the team, although oftentimes they’re not the ones to necessarily, speak up.

So you have to kind of pull from them. Other types of diversity that people don’t necessarily think about are, you know, chronic pain is another type of disability where you, it’s not a visible one, so you don’t necessarily think about that. But people that are dealing with, those types of issues, it’s important that you know, you’re accommodating to them in your workplace culture.

Donald Thompson: No, that’s phenomenal. So you mentioned three, and then certainly this is a multilayered conversation, right? But neurodiversity, generational diversity, chronic pain, those are things that you don’t always think about in the case of generational diversity because you can’t lead everybody the same.

You can’t communicate with everybody the same. And neuro diversity and chronic pain, somebody just doesn’t raise their hand and say, “I’m having a bad day. I’ve got a migraine today,” right? A lot of times people are using a term, again, that I’ve learned, right? They’re covering things that are going on in their life because they don’t believe a lot of times that people will understand that they’ll still belong, that they’ll still be thought of as a business leader if they let people know that they need a different environment to be their best self.

And one of the things that you strive for in Walk West, but also in making sure our team was well versed is that leaders have a responsibility to create the environment of openness that people feel comfortable talking with HR, talking with their manager, and that those things that they share at the time that they’re ready are going to be something that people add value around, right? Not as a chink in their armor for whether or not they can do an amazing job at work. And I think that’s super, super important. One of the things that, is a change for you, right? You spent the last, how many years in executive support? Ten years? The last 10 years supporting executives doing powerful work for organizations, but more behind the scenes.

Well, now you’re on podcasts, now you are a published author, right? You’re in several diversity related periodicals. What has that transition been like for you now in front of the camera? Right. So you’re on podcast in front of the camera, you’re writing and it’s Jackie Ferguson out front. What are some of the differences that that transition has meant to you in the good things, and then some of the things that have been a little uncomfortable that you had to work through.

Jackie Ferguson: That’s a great question. So, the part that’s good, based on my personality, is, you know, I do a lot of hard work and it’s nice to get the recognition sometimes for that work.

Donald Thompson: You mean like having your coarse featured in an article in Adweek? You mean like that?

Jackie Ferguson: Yeah.

Donald Thompson: Okay. I get it.

Jackie Ferguson: But it’s actually been very difficult for me because I am a behind the scenes, team player, someone-else-get-the-spotlight type of person. So, I’m definitely out of my comfort zone, just sitting here talking to you. I’m usually the one helping to do the back research and help write the questions and then someone else get the spotlight. So it’s a transition, but it’s been fun. It’s been a learning experience. I’ve grown so much learning how to  manage business and I appreciate the support that I’ve gotten along the way.

Donald Thompson: So one of the things I’ve noticed as I’ve observed, right, and seen the transition, you know, you talked about work ethic and that’s been clear in all the roles that you’ve had. And the empathy that creates somebody that’s good in a support role can also translate to a leadership role because now that you are leading others, you’re part of a larger team, you’re thinking about all the different aspects of why that person is performing or may need help or support. And so a compliment that I would share with you is not just the work that you’re doing, but the way you’re working with various team members to bring out the best in them.

And I think that’s one of the things that I’ve observed that I’m really excited for because that gives our movement a great chance to be a scalable business. Because you can do, right? You can think, but you can also lead other people to think and do. And that’s really, really powerful, and so you should be really, really proud of that, as you continue to grow and develop as a leader in your own right and people knowing that, right?

There’s a difference in having it and people knowing it. And that’s pretty powerful.

You’ve built an amazing course. And it’s not amazing because you say it’s so it’s because the feedback, the 4.6 rating in the reviews, the technology companies that are looking at adopting the course, the number of people with PhDs and experts and trainers and teachers that want to be a part of what you’re doing.

So that validates that what you’ve led the charge with is excellent. Who helped you make it so? Who was a part of that team to create something that is outstanding?

Jackie Ferguson: So a lot of people participated in the success of the course. Again, the internal team, which consisted of yourself and Sharon McCloud, Kurt Merriweather, a lot of external partners that have looked at the course and reviewed it.

The one person that I would call out is Kaela Kovach-Galton. She has worked as the project manager to make sure that this course was excellent and done in a fast timeframe considering all of the iterations. I’ve enjoyed working with her. We’re very different. We come from different generations, different backgrounds.

She’s an academic writer, I’m a business writer, but we both prioritize high level work and I’m glad she’s on the team and I know I wouldn’t have been able to accomplish it as quickly and as well without her help.

Donald Thompson: That’s fantastic. I think one of the things when I look at, where you’re going to take things next is that you guys have built a tremendous team around the product, but also around the diversity movement itself, right? So one of the things that when you look at the product that you’ve created, and you talked about Kaela and the different team that created the content, another thing that you guys have gotten significant kudos on is the look and feel of the digital presence for The Diversity Movement.

Tell me a little bit about the team that helped you guys pull that together.

Jackie Ferguson: Yeah. So we’ve had so many people, help with this project. So with regard to the website specifically, and all of the assets, we had a great design team at Walk West, pull that together which included Chris Bunn and Amanda Bennett, and then Robert Povelones, helped with the accessibility, making sure that the website was accessible, and he did all the development for that. So we’ve had a really fantastic team to help on the tech side.

Donald Thompson: Final question for me, you’ve talked to a lot of people through building the Beyond the Checkbox podcast to building out the content for the Beyond the Checkbox course.  What have you learned that is helping propel your journey as a D&I leader and practitioner?

Jackie Ferguson: That’s a great question. I’ve learned a lot. I would say that at the top of the list would be that not everyone understands the value of diversity and inclusion and understanding how to properly message the story and value and the business case is the thing that needs to be nuanced. And the thing that I think is a continual learning process to gain the most adoption, broadly.

I think that’s the thing that I’m still working with and still working through.

Donald Thompson: Yeah, I think one of the things we talked about before this recording was the value exchange, right? And you know, I appreciated the way that you said it, is that people are gonna move forward with new information to the degree that they understand the value that it brings them.

So quite frankly, to a CEO is how does diversity affect my bottom line? And so one of the things when I go to The Diversity Movement site, I see lots of information that share with me the reasons why, the statistics, the information that allow me as a business leader to be smarter, faster about some things new and often a little bit of a touchy subject to try to figure out and learn.

And so I just want to commend you guys on a tremendous first step. And I know that there’s more to come in the area of gamification, in the area of different course materials that, you’re going to share with the broader audience over the next coming weeks. But congratulations on launching Beyond the Checkbox and for the great reviews to date .

Jackie Ferguson: Thank you.

Donald Thompson: What questions do you have for me? Like, this is your podcast. I’m turning over the reins to you. Like I’ve been asking most of the questions, but let’s flip the script a little bit, what would you like to hear from my perspective, point of view?

Jackie Ferguson: Don, what advice can you give me that you learned from hosting Diversity Beyond the Checkbox?

Donald Thompson: Oh, man. One of the things that’s really been a blessing to me is when I talk to business leaders and emerging leaders and people that care about the diversity, inclusion, journey that we’re all on is how much I’m learning with each interaction. Everybody has something a little bit different that’s adding to my perspective as I grow up, and that’s whether it’s my appreciation for the neurodiversity things that I can’t see because I’m a hard-charging business guy, so to speak, and sometimes you don’t slow down to think about the effects. I’ll give a quick example. If you know, I can pick up things pretty quickly. I can do things on the fly. If somebody is dealing with learning a little bit differently than I learned and process information and I send out a meeting agenda, but I don’t send out any bullets on that agenda.

I don’t really cover the topics. It’s super vague. Well, the people in that meeting the next day or the next week that can pick things up on the fly, they’re fine with it, but the person that needs a little bit of extra time to prepare so that they can contribute at a high level, I’ve created an uneven playing ground because I didn’t prepare the meeting so that everybody that has different skills, talents, and the way they learn, can participate at a high level.

The Diversity Movement and the education we’ve gone through has made me more sensitive to those kinds of things around the edges that are my responsibility as a leader.

Jackie Ferguson: Great, thank you.

Donald Thompson: And I’ve learned a lot of that from the people on the podcast and from listening to you.

Jackie Ferguson: Next question, what was your most memorable moment from season one?

There was a lot of memorable moments. I’ve had a lot of phenomenal guests, but one of the things that was really, you know, made me slow down, reflect and just be really happy was when we interviewed Carlos Alva. He’s a former intern at Walk West, and I remember when Brian Onorio hired him, he was getting his MBA and we were like, “well, what does an MBA need a design internship for?” But Carlos being the emerging leader  that he is in his own right, wanted a varied set of experiences before he went into consulting, which was his ultimate goal. And to see Carlos now, having a beautiful family, wonderful career.

He’s a consultant at Deloitte, and so if you know anything about as you, I know you do, but that’s one of the top consulting organizations in the world, not just the country. And he was selected to be a significant part of their organization. And so really having him on the podcast, hearing him talk about diversity, inclusion, him talk about some of the things that he overcame as a young man and now watching his career thrive.

It was a great moment.

Awesome. And finally, Don, tell us about your podcast.

Donald Thompson: So in handing over the reigns to you, I’ll still be in the podcasting space ’cause I love asking questions. I love getting a chance to talk to really neat and interesting people and learn. One, it’s free learning. I’m going to have phenomenal conversations, ask questions that our listeners want to know, but I also want to know, and I’m getting smarter, stronger, better, because I’m listening to such a diverse group of business leaders and people, and it makes me better every time I do it.

And so that’s why I continue to make time to have podcasting be very important. The DT podcast is a little bit different flavor from Beyond the Checkbox and that we’re focused more on business entrepreneurship. We’re focused more on leadership development within your organization in terms of how do you progress to the next level?

How do you sell through the storm, right? How do you grow your business in the age of COVID, right? Those are some of the things that we talk about a little bit more general business, whereas Beyond the Checkbox does have a very specific niche on how do we empower people with diversity and inclusion? And so I’m excited about, all the different things our team is doing.

Learning this new podcasting platform an d really, really growing the competency of others. Because I think that, leaders are readers is things that we always hear, right? And that’s true, but I think that leaders are listeners and listening to Beyond the Checkbox is going to help people with their leadership growth and competencies.

Jackie Ferguson: Great, thank you so much.

Donald Thompson: Hey, you’re welcome. So the last thing I’ll say, Jackie, best of luck to you. I know that you’re going to amazing job with Beyond the Checkbox. I’ll be listening and just really excited to see some of the upcoming guests that you have in store and some of the phenomenal folks that in many cases, we had a gentleman that’s an elite leader in the D&I space, reach out from London wanting to be on your podcast. Several folks that are, very established authors, and I won’t be as spoiler. I’ll let people tease it out, but you’ve got some great and powerful guests coming and I’m looking forward to the success in the future.

Jackie Ferguson: Thanks, Don.

Like Don mentioned at the top of the show, to find more Diversity and Inclusion content, including the online course, head over to www.thediversitymovement.com, and if you like this show one way you could help with the movement is to subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review as well.

This show was edited and produced by Earfluence. If you’re looking for information on full service podcast production, head on over to www.earfluence.com I’m Jackie Ferguson and we’ll see you soon on Diversity Beyond the Checkbox.