Courtney Hopper: For those of you that are listening, today we’re drinking Bloody Mary’s, and you can find the recipe in the show notes.

Dana Kadwell: Nina, welcome to the hustle and gather podcast.

Courtney Hopper: Yes welcome.

Nina McCaskey: Thank you so much for having me ladies.

Dana Kadwell: We are so excited.

Courtney Hopper: You’re literally glowing too. There’s like some kind of like glow emanating off your skin.

Nina McCaskey: It’s not from within it’s highly.

Courtney Hopper:  Oh, that’s beautiful. Highlighted lovely. All right. Well, thanks so much for being here. Just jumping right in.

So, tell us about your move from New York. Cause it seems like to us, that New York would be a perfect place for a hair and makeup artist to be. So why did you randomly decide to move all the way to North Carolina and start up your business here?

Nina McCaskey: Yeah, I know it’s kind of crazy. So, I lived in New York city for nine years, met my husband there, started my business there. I was a full-time trainer for Laura Mercier cosmetics, so I had like Bergdorf’s and Sachs and like Bloomingdale’s I have like, you know, a lot of stores that I did, but I always wanted to do full-time. I wanted to do wedding makeup, like through and through, because I did my first one and was like, okay, this is what I want.

In New York it was good. But man, carrying my stuff on the subway was a nightmare. I got to a point where like I turned like 30 and I was like, I can’t do it. My knees can’t do it anymore. So, I told my husband, I was like, okay, I know I’ve only been to Durham because I had a client fly me here to do her hair and makeup at Duke Chapel. And the other time that I had been here was for my brother’s graduation, he got his doctorate at Duke. So really, I’d only ever been to Duke, but I knew if I moved here, I could really focus on the business. Also get to spend time with my brother and his family and I, my parents would retire here. So, it seemed like a good fit. For sure.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah, awesome. So how did you get it all to start? And what did you do to make ends meet while that business was growing?

Courtney Hopper: Because obviously you left your full-time job in New York and came here to… no full-time job.

Nina McCaskey: So, I came here with a full-time job, so I, they flew me here. I interviewed as a manager for Laura Mercier and then in about five months I was like, I felt kind of bad, but I was like, got to go and get that job. And the first move I made was okay, I need to get as many weddings on the books as possible in order to make that transition. So, I did Forever Bridal, or I guess it’s called Forever and Company.

I did that show going, okay, I’m going to show up as hard as possible. I’m going to talk and do touch up makeup on as many people as possible, and I’m going to make sure that I get, you know, 15 weddings was my goal. If I got 15 weddings on the books for that year, I was going to quit my job at the time my husband didn’t have a job, guys. Yes. So, it was insanity, but I’m the kind of person that I’m like, if I’m going, I’m going all in. At that show, man, I was probably a nightmare to any other beauty person.

Coming from a New York City background of like pulling people from Saks Fifth Avenue, you know, and pulling people like, I would get everyone at my booth in that chair. And I ended up booking over 15. I think I did 22 weddings. And like, about, like a two-week period from doing that one bridal show, I would never do that bridal show again, because I was so booked, which is a blessing, but that was like my way in. I’m going to do this as hard as I can, and if it works, then this is it.

Courtney Hopper: I feel like this says a lot about your personality that you’re able to like start your business at a bridal show, as we have attempted multiple bridal shows. And I can’t say that they’ve made very much of a bottom-line difference.

Dana Kadwell: We’re not as nice as Nina, I think that’s part of it.

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. So, I think that says a lot about you that you’re able to, just to like pull these randos and make a business.

Nina McCaskey: I also think like my theater background helps.

Courtney Hopper: So, you were singing to them?

Nina McCaskey: Yeah, I have a bachelor’s in theater, and so I think that has a lot to do with like how I communicate with people, even though I don’t sing or act on a regular basis. I feel like my job is a lot about communicating and like telling a great story, and making people feel good too is a huge part of the beauty industry, and so I think that helped a lot at that show for sure.

Dana Kadwell: So, I had a question, kind of want to back up for a second. So, I’m assuming that your husband had a job in New York.

Nina McCaskey: Yeah.

Dana Kadwell: So, and then he moved to North Carolina without a job with you with a full-time job. So, I’m just thinking of my own personal marriage dynamics and how I would convince my husband to quit his job for me to go across the country, or I guess down South, like how did he take that and how did that work into this need to, and then you’re like, Oh, by the way, I might want to quit in a few months because I want to be a wedding makeup artist?

Nina McCaskey: Uh, yeah, it was hard. It sucked. So, the thing is, my husband is from Pittsburgh as well. I have Southern roots, like my mom is from Savannah. I grew up in Florida. So, like, I have a little bit of that South goodness. And so, like me transitioning was a huge transition, but him transitioning, I don’t think he fully has.

Courtney Hopper:  He’s only partially transitioned.

Nina McCaskey: Yeah, but I think he knew that like, he was not super happy. He was at a place for 10 years. We kind of stopped going out in New York City, and so like, that was the main reason, like we loved being in New York. Things had changed drastically in New York City, like all of our favorite restaurants, all our favorite music venues, and so I just said to him, I said like, what do we have here? You know? And like, why can’t we just come back and visit? Like, let’s go somewhere new and see if it’s better, you know?

Dana Kadwell: Yeah, well, obviously you booked 20 brides at a bridal show, convinced your husband to pack up and move to North Carolina with no job. I mean, that’s some pretty amazing Juju you got there.

Courtney Hopper: I remember doing that bridal show as C&D Events. Way before I was Forever and Co., It was The Bridal Show, and they told us that they had another planner that booked 30 weddings and blah, blah, blah. We thought for sure this was going to be like, what propelled us to the next level.

And I think we booked one wedding off of that show and it didn’t even pay for the show because you weren’t charging anything at that point. So, we were like, this just may not be the avenue for us. Not that it dissuaded us from doing other shows because we did, but had very similar results.

Nina McCaskey: I’ve talked to venue owners say like, oh four for my venue, this is incredible. But for planning company, it’s not, you know. So, it depends on like, I think your spirit and who you are plus, like what that client’s looking for. And so, we, those clients, that particular day, most of them didn’t want a planner, maybe they had already booked a planner. So, like there’s a lot, but we’re usually late on that totem pole.

Dana Kadwell: No, not anymore.

Nina McCaskey: I have booked December of 2022 already. I have people reaching out to me now that don’t even have a date yet. And I’m like, Oh, but normally beauty people are like towards the end. So, a wedding show like that for like a DJ or somebody like in that realm, rentals or something would be really awesome.

Dana Kadwell: So, at what point were you like I’m doing it, I’m successfully running a business like this is it.

Nina McCaskey: I still don’t feel that way.

Courtney Hopper: So, TBD you’ll let us know.

Nina McCaskey: Like we have a hundred brides, but I’m still like, how am I still, how am I doing this? No, I think for me it was, Oh goodness. I think it was when I like jumped and went full time. That was when, like the excitement was like, oh my gosh, this is really happening. But once I had started to go to networking events and people like knew who I was. Like people be like, oh my God, I wanted to meet you. I’m like, is this real life? People know me? That was like really incredible, just because I’d been like working so hard and only working and like literally my everything went into it.

And so, to see that and to have people reach out to me and me not reach out to them was like, that was the turning point for me, that like, oh my gosh, I’ve made enough of my name, like put my name out there so much that I’m not begging to be seen anymore, you know?

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. It’s so weird. I, I spent a couple of times that I’m like, Hey, I’m Courtney and someone be like, I know, I know who you are. And I was like, okay, who are you? You know? And that just sounds so weird and condescending, you know, but I don’t know you. Can you please provide a name?

Nina McCaskey: For me, even when like a planner reaches out and is like, Oh, I had this client for you. And I’m like, you do? I’m still very excited about it. I mean, yeah. This year has been rough spill. But the whole, like people reaching out to me and trusting me is like the best part. It’s so good.

Courtney Hopper: So, take us back to like March 2020, and you were about to hit a wild wedding season. Like everyone just, you know, for us 2020 it was just looking like guns blazing, you know. So how many bookings had you already had lined up for the year?

Nina McCaskey: I think we were at 84, and that was in March. So, we pretty much had the whole year booked and we had a wedding set for like the week of when they shut down. And we were going to start because January, February is our slow season. We’re lucky if we have two weddings in January, February. And so, we were all really excited and then, you know, the bomb dropped.

Courtney Hopper: So, like speaking of that bomb, like, what was it like over the next six weeks? Like, what were you left with? What was going through your mind, like at that point?

Nina McCaskey: Oh shit.

Dana Kadwell: A lot of swear words. I feel that deeply.

Nina McCaskey: I think initially I thought, okay, well this is going to be a pretty crappy month. You know, I thought, oh gosh, like hopefully it’ll only be like a month or two, and that it’ll suck for like a month or two.

But once I started getting the emails and it was like, I was glued to my computer, I’m sure as you guys were, where it was like every single bride till like June was like coming at me. That was rough, like emotionally draining, exhausting. I’m sure you felt the same. I would say for at least three to six months, it was like, it took its toll.

Dana Kadwell: So where was your oh shit moment? You kind of touched on it lightly. And when you realize that you weren’t going to make it through this year, unless you pivoted.

Nina McCaskey: Yeah, I would say when summer started going, like it went from one month, to okay just two months, to okay it is just spring. But then once summer started hitting, I was like, all right, I got to do something because I had no money.

And at that time too, my husband got furloughed. So, I feel like my business has been like, you know, I’ve gotten so much momentum from, well, I got no other choice, you know, it’s either do it or you’re homeless. How are we going to keep the lights on? So, for me, that’s where so much of my drive came.

And so, in summer I was like, all right, I got to do something. So, I started doing virtual makeup, which was great, it really was. And I think a lot of people loved the aspect of zooming with their friends and learning because we are all stuck inside. But then that well dried up because people were tired of zoom, you know?

And then I said, okay, what can I do to, cause I’m not getting any more inquiries, because people aren’t going to plan right now. And so, then I started like a little gifting box that you could send for your friends because I really loved the aesthetics of like just kind of curating like a tiny little gift and like a little note you could send to your friends and that like really took off. And that was end of August.

Courtney Hopper: They’re called the weekend boxes, right?

Nina McCaskey: Yeah. We do them monthly but starting this year, February will be my last one that will be monthly. And we’re going to do it seasonally.

Dana Kadwell: Whenever I talked to anybody that was going through, um, the pandemic, you have really two camps. It’s one that was, I just couldn’t it was too stressful, not that they couldn’t hack it, but there wasn’t enough. Maybe their husband or spouse or partner was also furloughed. And I just had to get out and I got my real estate license. I, you know, did something completely outside of the industry. And then you have people very much like you who are like, well, I don’t want to do that.

I want to stay in here and pivot. Talk a little bit about how you kind of made that decision to pivot within the industry and not just say like, hey, this is too much, like I can’t do it.

Courtney Hopper: To be clear, Dana was not saying she got her real estate license. She’s saying like, as an example, if someone were to go and like get their real estate license.

Nina McCaskey: Yeah. For me, it wasn’t a choice to jump. And I don’t say this with ego, but I say this with small amounts of ego, I’m really good at my job. And I know that I’m going to continue being really good at my job and no matter what, and no matter what was going to be thrown my way. And if I was going to have no weddings this year, I wasn’t giving up on it. I had worked way too hard to give up on it. There’s no way.

Dana Kadwell: That’s amazing. I love that drive and I, and I think more than anything I love that confidence. I feel like what draws me so much to you and life in general is your confidence. because you embody everything that I want my daughter to be like, just the ability to say, like, I’m good at this and I have no excuses. Like this is me.

Nina McCaskey: It’s like the sweetest thing in the world.

Dana Kadwell: It’s true, especially, and you know, we’re 1984 babies, right? So, you grew up the same time I grew up. In that world, we were taught to make ourselves smaller and to not be bossy, to not be sassy, to not be stubborn. And I feel like, I just think that’s amazing. I think it’s amazing that you came out of the eighties and the nineties, like with this just amazing confidence to just, take it by the balls, or the ovaries as Courtney says.

Courtney Hopper: We’re growing some ovaries now, not balls.

Nina McCaskey: I like everything you said, because every adjective you used, I was like, that’s me, that’s me. That’s the thing, Megan from Weddings for Real said like, what’s your super power was like one of her episodes that I loved.

And for me, my super power is being different. What I noticed the second I moved down here that I was different. I was like, I went to my first Tuesdays Together, my first networking event. And I said, Oh, there’s nobody like me because A – I’m a bigger girl. There’s not a lot of bigger girls in the industry.

I wear, you know, bright clothes. I have a very loud voice and I’m not shy. And so, going into a networking event and going like, oh man, I stick out here. I could have said, okay, I want to be more like everybody else here. I need to blend in to fit in with the wedding industry. I want them to like me and see themselves in me.

But instead, I said, well, this is who I am. Like, my super power is being different, and so I’m just going to run with it. And my team is going to, I’m going to get a, like a little band of misfits with me. And so like, our team is different too, you know, and I think we attract a bride that’s attracted to different.

And so, it helped that I did have that confidence to just kind of be like, well guys, if you don’t like me, you don’t like me, you know.

Dana Kadwell: I love fresh air. Like I feel like, and I was actually just talking to someone about this day. Like sometimes you feel like when you’re in a creative industry, that is like national and, you know, I guess worldwide that it gets stifled and it, you feel like you’re seeing the same things over and over and over again, you’re seeing the same pose for a headshot.

You’re seeing the same tablescapes. You’re seeing the same, same, same, and so when you get something that, and somebody who just breathe fresh air into it, it’s, it’s just amazing.

Nina McCaskey: Yeah. And I think there’s going to be a lot more of that. I think people have spent this whole year just being like surviving.

And I think in order for us to move on, people are going to have to dig creatively and like flourish this coming year or the following year, you know, and you’re going to have to get creative to reach new clients because clients are getting different too with how they spend their money.

Dana Kadwell: So, what do you think, like going through all this, how do you think this made you a better person?

Courtney Hopper: Or like a better boss, or how did it make Wedded Kiss a stronger company?

Nina McCaskey: I think it made me, like have faith in myself. You know, when you can have all this confidence and you can have this, I know what I’m doing, but until you do it and you accomplish it, you’re like, now I fully have faith that I know what I’m doing. Whereas before it was just an idea. It was a dream, but now I’ve done it. And now that’s who I am.

Courtney Hopper: I love that actually, I’ve kind of been thinking a little bit along the lines of how when people start something or they start walking through life or whatever, there’s almost like the sense of like entitlement that it’s going to be easy and it’s going to come to you and you’re going to succeed, et cetera, et cetera.

And kind of marinating along the lines of like entitlement blinders, like when you go through really hard times and you’ve had to conquer something it like takes those entitlement blinders off. So, when you move into your next thing or the next hard thing, you’re not moving into it with those blinders, you’re moving into it with the thorough knowledge that I’m a bad-ass.

I can handle this, look at what I’ve been through. Like you’re not moving into it with that same blind mindset, which I think is actually a gift in the end, even though in the middle of it, you’re like, this is really shitty. Like I remember one of the things that this makes me think of is. When we were building The Bradford and Dana has a friend that owns company, and she looked at us and she was like, I’m just so jealous of you guys.

I was like, what? She was like you’re working hard and I know it’s hard, but at the end of the day, like, you’re going to be self-made people, like that you did it and you know that it was you. But at the time I was like, that’s bullshit. Like, I will take your money any day right now, if you want to donate some money to this charity case, like, please do. You know, but after we walked through it and we had kind of like the story.

We know what we can do. Like it just made us such stronger, confident business people and able to make the better decisions for our business moving forward, because we had been through that and we’re like, all right, we made it through that. We can make it through some other things. And really it was a gift at the end. In the middle, it doesn’t feel that way.

Nina McCaskey: This year has done that for a lot of us. If you survive this year, with the help of therapists.

Courtney Hopper: Or alcohol, whatever.

Nina McCaskey: If you survived, like you’ve got something there. You managed to make it out and you can still say like, I have a prosperous business. Like there’s something there.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah, I love that. And I feel like for me, I’ve always been a more timid business owner. I don’t take a lot of credit for things, and I feel like there was a point when if anyone said like, Oh, I’m going to send you a demand letter or I’m going to see you. I’d be like, well, let’s, we could try to resolve it, you know?

But now I’m like, okay, here’s my lawyer’s information. Because at the end of the day, I know, that I’m doing the right thing. Like I am not swindling you, I am not breaking any laws. I’m not even being a hard ass about things. I’m being extremely generous. And I feel so confident in that, that I can confidently tell somebody and I could stand in front of a judge and say, these are the 10 options I gave this person and they chose something different and I can’t help that.

And it really gave me that freedom to say, like, I know what I’m doing. Like I know how to run a business. If we can survive a pandemic and not lay anybody off. Like, I feel like I know that we know what we’re doing, you know.

Nina McCaskey: I think it’s also essential that you make that separation. Because for me being like a feeler, it was really hard for me to take their feelings and their needs and separate them from well, this is a business. That was really hard in the beginning months, but now having gone through all this, you can still have empathy and you can still care for your clients, but you need to think about it yourself first. It’s your business, you know?

Courtney Hopper: I totally agree. I mean, we tell our clients that too, like the worst thing that we can do is listen to every sob story cause they’re all very similar and make decisions based on our emotions. And at the end of the day, you have no venue to get married at, cause we’ve gone out of business because we’ve made emotional decisions and not financial decisions. So, believe me, when we have these policies or we give you these options, it’s because it’s what’s in the best interest of you. And the next client or the next client and the next client. And that’s why you have them. Period. End of discussion.

Dana Kadwell: That works like, I don’t know, maybe 90% of the time, the other 10% it’s like, I don’t care, but I’m special, but I’m special. I had this problem, like, well, I’ve heard that same problem by five other people, so.

Courtney Hopper:  You’re like, let me tell you about your entitlement blinders.  So, kind of like summarizing a little bit, what advice would you give someone whose business has been crushed by this? I mean, it’s obviously you’ve all been through 2020, it’s raked us through the coals. Like someone may be in the wedding industry or the restaurant industry, or really any kind of service driven industry, and they’re worried that a side hustle might be seen as a failure. Like what would you tell them?

Nina McCaskey: I don’t think it is. A – if you know all these wedding industry professionals already, and you’ve already made a name for yourself, they know who you are and they know who you are at your core. So, if you do a side hustle and they see that, they’re going to be inspired by it.

And most people that have seen my little side hustle have been, oh, that’s so cool, like great job. It’s not a failure. Think of it as an add on to a business that needs something added on at this moment. Yeah. It’s definitely not a failure, it’s you freaking survived, you know?

Dana Kadwell: So true. I mean, that’s just my only thing that I say I survived 2020. That’s just what I say, I survived. Like, that’s what I can tell you happen this year. That’s the extent of it because made it through it.

Nina McCaskey: People always ask like, how are you? And I always just go, I’m alive.

Courtney Hopper: I’m here and perfectly highlighted. So, there’s that.

Dana Kadwell: So true.

Courtney Hopper: Kind of ending on a hopeful note, like what is 2021 looking like for you?

Nina McCaskey: You know, there’s a little bit of the same, you know, there are quite a bit of reschedules. We’re headed down that road. However, I’ve got my reschedule backpack on of tools that I have to use now. And we still have a lot of clients that are going well, I guess I’ll change it up. And so, I think we’ll probably still have maybe half the weddings we were supposed to, but at least it’s something guys.

You know, and if we don’t, I have the tools to survive. And that’s where I’m at right now is I’m going to make the most of whatever we do have this year.

Dana Kadwell:  So, one thing I think is really interesting too, when we’re talking about side hustles, like a lot of people and we felt this or for ourselves, so one of our side hustles was Bushel and Peck and that side hustle got us through. It helped finance The Bradford. It helps get us where we are today. I don’t like it. I don’t like flowers in general. I don’t like dealing with them. They’re not like my thing.

And we, this year may, or last year made the decision, we’re going to let Bushel and Peck go. And it was really hard and filled with a little bit of shame because I wanted to say we’re leaving, not because they’re not good at it. Not because we didn’t have the business, but just because it doesn’t serve my business anymore, but I was so afraid of the judgment. That was going to come with letting the side hustle go. So how are you going to approach it? Like maybe Wedded Kiss gets massive and weekend boxes becomes something you’re like, dude, I don’t want to deal with this anymore. It doesn’t serve a purpose. It’s not something that gives me joy anymore. And letting that go. How would you approach letting that kind of go away?

Nina McCaskey: I think I come from a different mentality. If it doesn’t serve me, I don’t want it, but like if somebody has an opinion about it, that doesn’t matter because in the grand scheme of life, my happiness and my family’s happiness is most important.

So, I can understand the shame and the feeling like, Oh, I failed in that realm. You’re going to be better for it, so let it die. You know? Weekend boxes become something that I hate doing, uh, is going to be gone. But like, that’s why right now I’m like, I’ve loved doing it because I’ve had less weddings this year, but it’s something that I enjoy doing and I’m going to do it when I want to.

Courtney Hopper: That’s awesome.

Nina McCaskey: I sound like an egomaniac.

Courtney Hopper: You sound woke.

Dana Kadwell: All I can think of is I don’t like it; it’s going to be gone. I just feel like I would be giving myself a pep talk, like weekend boxes, you better get your shit together. This is the last one I’m putting together. I’m not doing anymore. Pulling over the van, get out like a parent.

Nina McCaskey: Doesn’t bring you joy, get rid of it. What’s who’s that girl, Maria,

Courtney Hopper: Marie Kondo, that shit. Doesn’t spark joy.

Nina McCaskey: So, if Bushel and Peck isn’t serving your business, you guys are bad-ass and all other realms, it’s literally nothing compared to what you’ve grown, you know?

Courtney Hopper: Well, thank you so much for sharing your OG story and your 2020 story.

Dana Kadwell: No, I love it. I, I mean, me and Nina, just like we went through the fire together very early on with a very hard climb and it was rough and all I can say is you handled it so well.

Nina McCaskey: Did I?

Dana Kadwell: You did.

Nina McCaskey: Because I remember a mother-in-law calling me and me hanging up on her.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. But you should have, because she was, not very nice.

Nina McCaskey: That was everything horrible is going on in the world and look at how you’re treating another human. That’s what I said, and then she changed her tone and left me a message and was like, Nina. I’m so sorry. I was like, mmhmm. I was like, girl, cause you screaming and it’s not even your wedding.

Dana Kadwell: You didn’t pay for it.

Nina McCaskey: It wasn’t even her money. But we survived.

It was rough. We survived.

Courtney Hopper: Well, cheers to survival and thriving and good highlighter.

Dana Kadwell: Cheers, cheers, and great highlighter. Well, it has been wonderful. We have so enjoyed talking with you as always.

Courtney Hopper:  Thanks everyone for gathering with us today to talk about the hustle. To check out Wedded Kiss weddedkiss.com or follow them on Instagram at weddedkiss.

Dana Kadwell: And to learn more about our hustles visit canddevents.com, or follow us on Instagram at canddevents. If you liked the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and a review.

Courtney Hopper: This podcast  is a production of Earfluence. I’m Courtney.

Dana Kadwell: And I’m Dana.

Courtney Hopper: And we’ll talk with you next time on Hustle + Gather.