Hilaire: Well, I grew up around entrepreneurship. My dad’s an entrepreneur. My husband now is an entrepreneur. So it’s the only thing I know. So I don’t know any different. Weekends sometimes meant, growing up, hanging out at the office.

She might be working on a big presentation. So I was hanging out, you know, dad was helping, maybe put fabric books away or mowing the lawn out front, you know, of the office or, you know, with my color rigging in my journal and just, you know, hanging out or whatever. So it’s through osmosis that I was just around entrepreneurship that I was like, Ooh, this is cool.

Hey mom, what are you doing? That fabric looks nice or whatever. So it’s just being around it and just being curious. 

I quite literally grew up in the industry when I say that, because when I was still in my car seat and everything, mom would put me underneath the conference room table. Or, you know, the people I work with now and vendors, those people knew me when I was little. So it’s very cool to have a depth of like, Hey, I knew you when you were little, you’re now a professional and you’re working with her. So that’s like a really cool dynamic to work with people who’ve known me basically my whole life, but then to, to also, do this for, for a living. So it’s fun. 

Dana: So take us back to, I guess I would say early eighties-ish. Right? So, 

Courtney: I think it’s an interesting time for women in general. 

Dana: Because I think they were trying to have it all. So women were now saying like, okay, I can’t have a career and I can be a mother, and trying to find that. We still struggle with that, trying to balance it all and whatnot. But was there any, like roadblocks that you came up with, is there anyone that kind of pushed against your desire to have your own company and also be a mother? 

Judy: No one really pushed back, but there was a lot of mom guilt and I didn’t know that word existed back then, I remember distinctly one time when Hilaire had, she was a little tike. I mean, she wasn’t taller than this table, and she had strep throat and she, she had it a couple of times, but this particular time she was really very sick. And I had an appointment, which I thought was more important. I didn’t, I didn’t say it or think it, but I felt like I had to do this.

Sure. 

So I pack her up and I bring her with me, and here I am in the conference room trying to do a presentation and this little one is in the bathroom throwing up and I thought, oh my God, what am I doing? I should have canceled, rescheduled, and I felt that was like the worst moment of me trying to incorporate my business and my mom. 

Dana: Yeah, but we’ve all been there. 

Courtney: I know, I forgot my child at school the other day. 

Judy: It’s not like I had to go ask my boss if I could leave. I mean, right, I should’ve just done it. 

Courtney: Yeah. But don’t you feel like sometimes, especially like in the beginnings of it, or if you’re trying to land that big client or there’s kind of that fear of like if I dont show this client that, you’re my number one priority that I’m not being pulled in another direction and I’m not going to land that.

Judy: Right. Like that feeling really permeated through my thoughts 

Courtney: And I feel like when you look back at the eighties, there was a lot of that. Like there was, it was not so blended to me as it is right now is either you were career or you were like the mom, like, but there wasn’t really like an in-between and there was a lot of judgment I feel like that went on during that time about career women, like becoming parents or like parents trying to have a career. 

Judy: Well, Courtney, the other thing is the clients weren’t understanding. Like now if, if I have one of my grandkids they’re oh, they’re all about talking to him and playing. But back then, it was like, 

Courtney: yeah, it was all about like the image.

Judy: No, the clients, I felt pushed back from clients sometimes if she was with me or, you know, there’s an extenuating circumstance that I couldn’t make an appointment or something, they, they were not as understanding back then as they are now. 

Hilaire: Yeah. I think innately me growing up around that it shows the drive, it shows the passion, it shows, you know, commitment and stuff. Not to say your kid isn’t important. I don’t think that’s the case at all. But I think also I don’t know, it’s one of those things where there’s a, there’s a drive there. You know what I mean? It’s not like a job that you just nine to five and you peace out. 

Courtney: Which when I feel like I’m in the throws of failure as a parenting, which I am often, I have three kids and I fail often, is I think about that. Like one, I think it’s really important for kids to grow up knowing that it’s not all about them, you know, and just in general. And I think when you have an entrepreneur as a parent, It’s not all about you because it can’t be right. Like you have your kids and then you have your business baby too. And there you’re going to have to make sacrifices and trade-offs, but then also I think it’s really super important as parents that we emulate what it means to go after something that you’re passionate about, you know, like, oh, you can live through this passion and you can make sacrifices, like it’s worth the sacrifice to make, you know, and everything’s a trade off and a decision.

Yeah. I think that even when you’re in the middle of that situation, it’s like, okay, there’s going to be some bad moments, but at the same time, what are you modeling for your child? Right. You know, you’re modeling that they can do this too. And what they are passionate about is important too. 

Judy: And I think that’s being passed down to my grandkids, Hilaire’s children. 

Dana: Yeah. So I guess the question is, I mean, did you ever feel like, you know, obviously you had mom guilt, like you are choosing the business over your kid, but did you ever feel that as a child. It’s like, you just like integrated into it? 

Courtney: So interesting. 

Hilaire: The Saturdays, I remember, Hey, we got it. You know, cause back in the day before after Glenwood, Judy had a space at the corner of peace. And so there was a little bit of a yard and, you know, home that she turned into an office. And so there was grass there and, you know, with family and after breakfast, let’s go mow the lawn and, you know, be sure that the office looks great. You know what I mean? It was just what we did. 

Judy: Take out all the cardboard and,

Hilaire: yeah. I mean, it, it is what it is. 

Dana: I love hearing that, that it just, it felt integrated, and I think that’s the goal is it’s not that I want my kids to feel like I chose them or I chose the business, but that it was all integrated into their life. 

Judy: That they were part of that. And I would give her a little jobs, you know, when she was old enough, she would kind of hang out over one of my associates, one of my designers who I dearly love and, not with me anymore, but now that she has kids in Hilaire has kids, she kind of understands how she kind of want to tag along. 

Hilaire: Or like, Ooh, those colors look pretty. What is that for mom? You know?

Dana: So when did you decide to join the team? At what point was that, that you’re like, this is actually what I really want to do?

Hilaire: Well, my degree is in communications, so I helped Judy run the business side of the firm. It wasn’t until I was almost at graduation my senior year, and I had a girlfriend of mine. We were hanging out visiting and she stopped by the office and she was like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. Why don’t you just see what happens here?

Like, Judy doesn’t have anybody in communications, and why, I mean, at least let’s why don’t you try it? You know? Cause like in college they were like, go for PR, go for the big city, go for agency, go for this, this, this. She, my girlfriend. Really was like well look like you might have the gem here, you know, just try it. And so I think just that encouragement from a girlfriend and just saying, okay, well, 

Courtney: Because it hadn’t dawned on you?

Judy: Not really. 

Courtney: Did you ever have any like rebellion against it? Like in like high school? 

Hilaire: Oh yeah. 

Judy: She was like I am never woring for my mom. I’m not doing this. And she said, she was probably only five, I don’t want to be a designer because I don’t want to work late, and I don’t want to work on the weekends. I said, okay, 

Courtney: Our kids have told us that too. They’re like, do you want to be an event planner? And when they’re little, the girls are like, no, you look too stressed. This is too much work. 

Dana: That’s what my daughter said. I don’t want to do that. I was too stressed. 

Judy: Yeah. But I’m glad she’s with me now because she took the company and made the leap. Again, social media. Wasn’t even in my frame of reference. Why do I need that? What does it do? And Hilaire took us to the next step with, you know, Facebook and Instagram and all the other things that, you know, I don’t really do that. That’s I don’t take pictures of my food or tell people where I am or yeah, it just doesn’t dawn on me that anybody cares, but she

Courtney: I feel that strongly honestly, 

Judy: But, people do care about us as a business and kind of what we’re doing. And she had the foresight foresight, and I guess the in-road to me to make us realize that. And I said, okay, you do it. I’m not doing it. You do it. 

Hilaire: And I think too, there was some honesty, cause I went to her and I said, she said, well, I don’t have anybody, but she’s like, well, let’s just try it. So we were willing to fail, you know, we’re willing to say, okay, well, let’s just give this a shot and if it doesn’t work at least we knew. because not everybody as you guys know, being sisters, not everybody can work with their family members. And so we said that was another thing like, okay, and we try and compartmentalize.

So like, while we’re at work, we’re Judy and Hilaire. And then like after five or, you know, we’re not in an environment where presents work, where mom and daughter. So we try and separate that a little bit. just for ease cause like saying pumpkin or honey, you know, in a client meetings not going to go too well, 

Judy: I always called her sweet pea. And I think I caught myself during that in a meeting. 

Hilaire: So, you know, over the years I think, you know, I’ve gotten on getting more responsibility of project management and then communications, and then it moved into the business side and running the operations and overseen installs, and, you know, so my role, I pretty much, I wear many hats as like taking out the trash some days to, you know, working with a PR company PR company and talking to you guys, you know, so it’s, it’s it varies. And no day’s the same. I love it. 

Dana: So you sit, you stay mostly in the design realm still, and you’re like just making it all happen. Like almost like a, like a COO in a way. 

Courtney: So I’m sure you guys like have had things come up in the business that have affected you personally. Like, how do you guys handle, like when you guys don’t agree or disagree? 

Hilaire: We try and keep any sort of mom daughter sass. minimal. but that, you know, that’ll creep in maybe two or two to 5% of the time. but we try, you know, we’re very respectful of each other’s thoughts and opinions, in my viewpoint. 

Judy: I mean, she has definite strengths that I don’t, and I have definite strengths that she does. I fly at 30,000 feet and my I’m a big picture person, and she’s the detail person she’ll spend two hours bonding 50 cents on a reconciliation statement, and I would have written it off the first 10 minutes. So we have very, very different processes and the way our mind works. That’s why I think we’re successful together.

Hilaire: Yeah. But I think we’re also honest and I think that’s really key too. You know, whether it’s a business decision or, Hey, I think it should go this way. Or what if we mapped out. You know, six plans and we’ll figure out which way we want to go. Or there’s a lot of trust to bring something that’s important to me. She sees that it’s important to me. And it’s something that I want to do. Or, you know, if we 

Judy: I’ll just let her run with it, whether I really know what the outcome’s going to be or not. 

Hilaire: And I say this in a sincere way. I never want to be a designer. I know that i, I mean, I’m around it and I can tell you a great paint color versus not a great paint color for example, but when people ask for my Pam’s like, Hmm, I’ll tell you, but that’s not what, you know, I’ll give you an opinion. I always have enough. But leave it to the pros, you know, so I know where sort of my lanes are, as far as that goes, 

Judy: she can’t, she did, she carved out this huge, which was a very narrow lane at first to this very broad all-encompassing lane.

Dana: I love that. I know. Yeah. It is really cool. I guess. I mean, I just think that even for us, like, it’s so easy to revert back to our younger selves and like our, like issues and you can bring up like, oh, this is how I feel. Cause I’m like a middle child. I’m like quintessential middle child.

And some of those, this is my middle child coming out. Like, and then like, this is your big sister coming out, you know, like it’s, I, I imagine it would be hard not to revert back to those old relationships, I guess, but 

Judy: yeah, I guess being an only child too, she had, when, when we were together, she had my full attention and we always did things together. And we always had nighttimes together.

Dana: You’re like true best friends. I, I have a daughter and a son and a from the moment she could talk, I always told her you were my best friend. And every Christmas I gave her a picture and it says best friends on it.

And my husband’s like, you’re brainwashing her. I was like, I am brainwashing her, on purpose. This is, this is intentional because she is going to be my best friend. Like, you know, Yeah, I love that.

Courtney: Yeah. She’s going to be my best friend actually. 

Judy: We used to go shopping and, you know, had all her stuff in the trunk and just go in with one little bag 

Hilaire: or, or back in the day there was fun and you’d go get all, you can eat crab legs, you know? I mean just, yeah. We be besties. 

Courtney: So did you ever, like, we like to ask this question on our podcast to everybody, if you’ve ever had like an oh shit moment in the building of your business, whether that was in the early stages or in the last few years where you were like, what am I doing? I’m in over my head? How are we going to see our way out of this? 

Judy: No, 

Courtney: No, never. Okay. 

Judy: no, never. but when you think about it through the eighties, nineties, early two thousands. How many ups and downs and recessions and things like that, there were times when it was lean and there are times, you know, now were, you know, just hugely successful. I credit some of that to Hilaire and her management, but we always had struggles, but we never had like, oh man, I’m in quicksand here. I’m headed out. No, it never. 

Hilaire: But I think that goes also to, to piggyback and support that is, she always does great work. so she’s always done that. And even our coworkers, everybody, we do, we stand behind our great work and if great work is there, then the clientele will follow or the referrals will follow.

I mean, before even, you know, we got a website. I mean, if Judy did great design work and someone comes over, sees that, oh, who did that? You know, that’s the best walking testament to a business is a referral. So when that happened, it just spreads and then you can’t help it spread. I mean, your home is your most intimate space where you can relax and, that’s where, you know, in 10 minutes we can be just meeting a client and all of a sudden be in their master bedroom talking about their space. So there’s a lot of honesty there too, but there’s a lot of trust. And then to be able to design a beautiful space for not only for your, your functionality and way of living. But also to make you happy. That’s really personal.

Dana: And I can imagine that’s so hard, like even just as trends change, right. And not jumping on necessarily trend bandwagons, but keeping that creative juices flowing and also making your own kind of style and your own mark, how do you stay inspired?

Judy: Okay. First of all, I listen, I try to tune in, I have a really good ability to tune in to the client and having met so many people along the way, the stories don’t really change that much. So trends, I try to avoid. I’m conscious of them because that’s usually what drives their vision, is having seen a trend, right.

You know, over the test of time, ha design has to, has to have longevity, and you can’t just give somebody that’s going to look like, you know, so dated in seven years, right? I mean, so there has to be something authentic about it. There has to be something that has a lot of honesty, whether You infused kind of a contemporary situation with one, you know, antique or one heirloom or one, something that makes the space theirs, makes it unique and gives it that edge. 

There has to be a unexpected edge about things that, you know, cause trends to me sometimes going to be awful boring. I mean, yeah, because they’re all the same and you see them again and again and again again. So I try to think that things are more timeless and when it’s infused with something from history, something authentic, something real, then it ceases to be a a trend that becomes personal, its theirs. 

Hilaire: We often say to wear lifestyle advocates because clients can come to us with a challenge or, you know, even, I think COVID going through the pandemic has presented because people have spent so much time at home.

Well, that dining room has now turned into versatile spaces, you know, versatility. And like now I need it to also be a space where I can have my children do homework and also take a meeting and entertain for 20 or whatever. So it’s about that. And really, truly not only listening to the challenges, but also seeing how design can create your life. Not easier, but more functional. Yeah. 

Courtney: So have you noticed that brings up a good point that I was thinking of because I like, as housing prices have gone crazy, you know, and people it’s hard to, you can get a house and, but people are spending a premium for it. Do you notice that they are more inclined now to spend with you and like to get it to cause I feel like, I feel like.

It’s become the hub again, right? Like that house, like people are like, okay, maybe this is important again, you know, like so much has to take place here and with everything being so uncertain and you’re like, I’m going to focus here on the house. And I think that’s, what’s caused this big boom, but has it also translated to your business?

Judy: It has, and it’s not so much that we have a swell of new clients wanting to do that. It’s just existing clients are rethinking what their, what their spaces do and everything. 

Hilaire: I think there’s also a rise to an outdoor spaces as well, and not just, Hey, I want a patio, but I want a patio with maybe an outdoor kitchen, or I want an area where I can go on a date with a fire pit to have intimate moments. And so there’s not just singular spaces. It’s again, going back to the versatility. 

Courtney: Because you couldn’t travel. Like you couldn’t go anywhere to get that escape. So you have to find it in your own, like quarter of an acre, 

Dana: Within your own life from it. You can’t escape the children, they’re everywhere and the house is a mess and it gets so much dirtier, so much faster. So then you’re just like, I need a break. Like I just need to, I need something. 

Hilaire: Well, and I think too, in our industry, we’re starting to see even more emphasis on wellbeing spaces. What does that look like? Everybody’s different. Do you need a space to go meditate and be quiet, or, or do you need that gym downstairs in the basement or the guest bedroom turned into, you know, your Peloton and your cycling and all that.

So, you know, it’s about hearing what, where our clients are in, in their point in their lives. And how can we make that benefit them. 

Dana: Yeah. I love that. I love that. I know. So good. 

Courtney: I love design in general. I think that’s one of the things that pushed us into our industry in general, because I mean, obviously when you’re planning a wedding, it’s like a concentration on like design in and out.

How can I do what you wanna accomplish in 10 hours? You know? But then also with our venue, I feel like that was one of the biggest driving forces for us in our venue is to be able to just design this space that was warm and welcoming, but large enough to accommodate, you know, 250 people, but not feel austere, you know, and it was versatile, versatile with all the outdoor spaces and it really allowed us to kind of flex design muscles and stuff always loved like that aspect of just life in general. 

Hilaire: Well, I thought going to that point, I thought in college, oh, well I should try event planning. I tried, I shadowed somebody, but I was like, Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. I enjoy making and doing events, but let’s do it for fun. Not for a living but I totally can see those parallels, those same intersecting points. 

Dana: Thanks everyone for gathering with us today to talk about the hustle. For our episode with Judy and Hilaire, we are drinking a peach margarita. We hope we get the chance to make it this week and cheers to releasing that mom guilt. To learn more and connect with Judy and Hilaire you can find design line signature on Instagram at designlinessignature. You can also see their work and learn more by visiting their website, designlinesltd.com

To learn more about our hustles, you can check us out on the gram at canddevents at thebradfordnc and at hustleandgather. If you’re interested in our speaking training or consulting, please look us up at hustleandgather.com.

Courtney: And if you love this show, we would be more than honored if you left us a rating and review, 

Dana: This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I’m Dana 

Courtney: and I’m Courtney, 

Dana: and we’ll talk to you next time on Hustle and Gather.