Courtney Hopper: I mean, I’ve never had a flashback to a past life. So, I’m not saying that this, like, was my past life, but I think maybe I was a gypsy soul. Like, just kind of like wandering and navigating. I love beautiful things, but I love, like, transitional things too.

Like, I like it when things– like, I change, which I think is evident in our serial entrepreneurship; that I like new, fresh, exciting things. I like things that, like, inspire me. I also, like, really resonate though, with people who have amazing talent– musicians–

Dana Kadwell: Yeah, I was going to– I was going to say that because I don’t have any talent. Yeah. Like I’m not like a talented person when it– 

Courtney Hopper: Because you used it in your past life?

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. Like, because I, I appreciate it so much. Like, I do love it. Like, I love the arts. I love art, I love music.

Courtney Hopper: Yeah.

Dana Kadwell: But I have no– I cannot draw to save my life. I’ve tried many times. I was in the band in high school and I was not good at it at all. Um, but I wanted to be so badly. So, I would think in my past life, I was somewhat artistic. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah, I don’t know. So you spent all of that talent? 

Dana Kadwell: I spent it all up and it was done. Like, it had to go a complete, like, you know, 180 for this current life that I’m living with no artistic abilities.

Courtney Hopper:  But I feel like my soul resonates with people who have amazing talent. Like, I can recognize it and I can appreciate right. 

Dana Kadwell: Right. Which I agree. Which to me is hard. Especially nowadays, because it’s hard to actually know who has talent. Like, people find– like, there’s certain, like, musicians people say are talented. I’m like, I don’t think they’re talented.

Courtney Hopper: Yeah.

Dana Kadwell:  Like– 

Courtney Hopper: Maybe talent’s subjective?

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. Which brings me to what he was talking about. He said, um, how humanities and the arts are very spiritually based. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: And when he said that I immediately thought of moments. Whether I’m in my car, even when I was a teenager in my room, like, listening to music and how you felt like that song was like, so, like, just, I don’t know. It gave me, like, the goosebumps and you just felt so connected to something, but it was so spiritual.

Courtney Hopper: She’s talking about “The Heart Will Go On” by Celine Dion. 

Dana Kadwell: I’m actually not talking about that song, thank you very much. The song that I loved, that I always felt that way, is the song “Hallelujah” from Leonard Cohen. 

Courtney Hopper: Yes. Okay. 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. 

Courtney Hopper: But I remember listening to Celine Dion, “My Heart Will Go On,” and laying in your bed and just crying, listening to it over and over again.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. I do remember that. I was 13 when it came out. That’s– you know–

Courtney Hopper: I know. It’s so sad. 

Dana Kadwell: Peak hormones. Yeah. Do you have a song that you felt that way about? 

Courtney Hopper: That I feel just, like, connected to spiritually? Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: Like it just– it was like this, I don’t know. Like, this, uh, deep, intense feeling. Just out of a song.  It didn’t, like, bring up– like, I didn’t conjure up anybody when I thought of “Hallelujah.” I just thought like, “Wow, this is amazing.” 

Courtney Hopper: I don’t know.

Dana Kadwell: No? 

Courtney Hopper: I mean, there’s stuff that’s all very situational for me. So, there’s like certain times I can look back on my life and, like, I can reflect on a song that really just kind of described, like, how I was feeling. Um, like, not in the much recent past, it was, uh, Macklemore, “Thrift Shop.”

Well, I, I can resonate with that at different stages in my life for sure. No, it was, um– someone help me. I’m going to look it up real quick. But like, I remember just feeling, like, very inspired by it. Or like, that it really– I think when you, when you relate to a song, it’s because it’s relating to some aspect of your life, right then. I feel like, for me. 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. There’s a ton of songs like that, that I relate to that are, that will, like, make me think of somebody or something, but I’m talking about–

Courtney Hopper: “Glorious!”

Dana Kadwell:  Oh. I’m talking about, like, a deep connection. Like, you feel connected to that artist, that song. And it is like, it stirs, like, your soul. It’s not, like, “Oh yeah, I could relate to this bebop around.” Like–

Courtney Hopper: Well, there was this one time that we did a wedding, and I wasn’t, like, overly connected to the couple. 

Dana Kadwell: I know exactly what you’re talking about. That was totally a moment.

Courtney Hopper: Yes, but it was like this, like, African– 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah, it was “The Lord’s Prayer” in African. An African song, “The Lord’s Prayer.” 

Courtney Hopper: Yes. It stirred you. Like, deeply.

Dana Kadwell: Oh yeah. It was, it was, it was intense.

Courtney Hopper:  It was. It was really quite amazing. 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. And it was sung by, like, an African choir, is that the track was. 

Courtney Hopper: And I can definitely say it wasn’t because I like related to the couple, like–

Dana Kadwell: Yeah.

Courtney Hopper: But I feel that way when I see live musicians. Like, I just see somebody with just a pure talent and they’re kind of like one with their instrument. And you understand at that moment that you’re experiencing their energy.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. 

Courtney Hopper: Like, it’s like a spiritual connection through that person, through their song. Like, I totally believe in that. So, another thing that he talked about early on, like, before we get super deep, don’t know how deep we’re getting into this, was, uh, Tarot cards. Like, cutting your thoughts on Tarot cards if you’ve ever had an experience with them. I feel like we don’t have a ton of experience with them because they were kind of, like, taboo growing up. 

Dana Kadwell: Oh yeah. Because they were like– they were believed like voodoo. We were allowed to watch the Smurfs. Most certainly, we’re not allowed to have our Tarot cards read. No, I’ve never had my Tarot cards read. Not for any reason. I don’t think I’ve ever had the opportunity to do it. So, it’s not, like, I like, you know, my nose up at it. I just never had the, the chance. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. I’ve never like, had, like, a personal reading, but I’ve had, like, a communal, like, in a communal reading that I’ve–

Dana Kadwell:  What community was this? 

Courtney Hopper: It’s just online. 

Dana Kadwell: Oh, online?

Courtney Hopper:  Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: Oh, okay. 

Courtney Hopper: And, and also, uh, my good friend, my best friend, Krista, uh, she does a little bit of card reading too, and she’s, like, pulled a couple and been like, “This really made me think of you,” or “What you’re going through.”

But I remember one time, in particular, that I was just having a real hard time at life and kind of hard time separating what was me in a situation and what was other people in a situation, being able to drown out those voices and, like, make my own decisions. And I was in this communal Tarot card reading, which is like the only one that I’ve ever been in and watched.

And they pulled the card, not my monkey, not my circus. And it, like, totally resonated with me where it was, like, what I was questioning and what I was feeling. It was very clearly at that moment, like, this isn’t your shit to deal with. Like, stay in your lane. It’s not your monkey, not your circus, and talking about how other people– how you try to fix other people or help other people.

And it just becomes your circus, even though it wasn’t your monkey in the first place that was messing it up. And you just kind of, like, invite this chaos into your life. And it would just, like, was just so timely, you know? And I really just– I don’t know, like, I got a lot from it. I mean, I took, like, pages of notes just as they were like describing the card and it’s like, “Wow, well maybe there is something to this.”

And not that I’ve, like, gone back to that, but just kind of– I think it fell in my life at the right time, which is another thing that he spoke about when he said that “Be open to the mystery.” Like, I felt like it just kind of lined up at that time that I needed to hear that message and internalize it. And it was very mysterious how all that happens. Because, obviously, we’re not like super involved in divinity and the arts and all those kind of things. 

Dana Kadwell: I think anyone who goes into, uh, business ownership and tries to be an entrepreneur and tries to control every second of it is– it’s going to be your demise. And so, I feel like part of owning a business and why it’s– one, it’s so hard, but why it’s so engaging is because you have to be okay with the mystery. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah, like I tell people all the time, like, I could have never imagined the journey, the entrepreneurship journey that we would have gone on. And probably a good thing because maybe we wouldn’t have gone on it. 

Dana Kadwell: But I don’t think it would’ve gone on. 

Courtney Hopper: And we would have missed out on so much, but like, where we’ve landed, even though it’s not like, you know, no one’s naming us the “40 Under 40” or anything, 

Dana Kadwell: I don’t know why.

Courtney Hopper:  Why? Why is that? Why are we not– 

Dana Kadwell: It’s the last year people. Last year. 

Courtney Hopper: This is it. Where’s my nomination? 

Dana Kadwell: No more options. 

Courtney Hopper: But it’s so much better than I thought it could have been. It’s so much bigger, so much more, so much more like nuanced than I thought it would be. Because when we first started on the journey, it was a very, like, cut and dry, like black and white. We’re going to do X, we’re going to make money, and we’re going to blah, blah, blah. You know? And it just– it’s not that straight of a line. 

Dana Kadwell: No. And I really loved when he was talking about that there has to be tension. And I, I was really intrigued because when he started talking about it, he was saying how you have to have, like, the Western culture, it’s tension resolution, tension resolution, which isn’t necessarily how Eastern culture handles it.

It’s very much they live in the tension. They just exist in the tension. And I think it’s really true that when you approach business and problems because there’s tension and you approach it purely from the fact that you need to resolve it and fix it, I think you miss a lot of just letting those things be hard and letting those emotions just be emotions and figuring out what that means at the end.

Like, a lot of what he was talking about too, like, in the beginning, how he, uh, just hated where he was. And he used his coworkers to have better relationships with him, but like, to also better himself, like, they’re the ones who he did the Tarot cards on and whatnot, and it, uh, and he dug a little bit deeper.

I think he said like, he plunged, like plunging into things of who he was and what he wanted. And I, like, really kind of– I don’t know, like, the eye-opening moment of a lot of times, like when I’m in moments, high tension moments, where I hate them, and I hate being in them. I want to get out of them as quickly as possible.

I don’t want to talk about it. I don’t want to, I don’t want someone to come up to me and say like, “Oh, well this is happening for a reason.” Like, I don’t want some fricking hallmark bullshit told to me. I just want to be angry and upset in the moment. And I don’t want to have to learn a lesson from it. You know? Because I just– I don’t want to give it that much power.

Courtney Hopper: Right. 

Dana Kadwell: And so, it’s a whole different way to think about something in a way of like, not necessarily giving it power, but saying, this could be a moment that changes, that shakes me up. That makes me say, why do I feel this way? Why am I upset?

Courtney Hopper:  Well, I think it’s just, honestly, like, acknowledging the tension. Like, I don’t think it’s– I don’t think it’s necessarily– and I understand what you’re saying, like, that kind of Western idea is everything’s going to be rainbows and butterflies. So if there’s tension, you seek a resolution, so the tension is no longer there. And I think a lot of life is tension because a lot of life is decisions.

So, when you’re making one decision, is you’re saying yes to something, it means you’re saying no to somewhere else. So, you kind of live in that, like, state of what tension is right for you. I mean, if you just think, just kind of in a purely abstract way of, like, being a business owner, entrepreneur, or going to work even, and, like, being a mother. Like, there’s always, like, that tension and it’s never resolved. Right?

You just make different decisions–

Dana Kadwell: Right. 

Courtney Hopper: –Based on your circumstances at that time. And you come to a place where, hopefully, you know, you can thrive, and your children can thrive, and you can both be moving forward, but the tension never goes. Right? So, I think it’s more about, like, living in that tension, and what can you learn from that tension than it is about resolving it. 

Dana Kadwell: Oh no, I totally agree. I just don’t approach life that way. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah.

Dana Kadwell:  Like, I either want to resolve it or I want to forget that it’s there.

Courtney Hopper:  So you’re like an ostrich. 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah, there are– I mean, I am. And it’s funny, I was talking to someone today, the other day. I think it was this morning, actually, about this, how as an Enneagram Eight, like, they love confrontation. And that’s actually– I don’t love confrontation, but I don’t like things to be unresolved. So, I will suck it up and take the confrontation because I just want it to be over.

Courtney Hopper:  Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: And off my mental plate. Like, I don’t want to be in that place. 

Courtney Hopper: Right. 

Dana Kadwell: So, either I’m going to deal with it head on and we’re going to come to a solution or I’m going to pretend like it’s not happening. And in my mind, there’s so tension because nothing happened. Right? 

Courtney Hopper: Totally interesting though. But it was interesting too, to me, like, how he was even talking about how, like, Virgo is a sign of tension and like all these things that kind of– because obviously he’s a Virgo. So, maybe he just can reflect on that a bit greater. It’s weird to me, like, when I read about being a Virgo, how much it lines up. 

Dana Kadwell: Well, yeah, because it has nothing– it’s literally just a month you were born in. Now your whole personality is, or the way you are supposed to be, is wrapped up into this– 

Courtney Hopper: But maybe that’s the mystery.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. I think that’s why it’s so intriguing. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah.

Dana Kadwell:  Like as a science person–

Courtney Hopper: Which you talked about a little bit, how he was talking about how science only gets to the first level, and then gutterly, I was like, “How do I feel about that?” Like, as some of you probably may not know that I have a degree in biology, Dana has a degree in chemistry, like we’re very science- minded people. We approach things in a very scientific way. 

Dana Kadwell: Well, yeah, but I will say that as I got into– because I have a BS in chem, a BA in math, and a background in physics, that there came a point when science is unexplainable. Like, when you start talking about, like, Schrodinger’s equation and you start talking about–

Courtney Hopper: Let’s talk about Schrodinger’s equation. 

Dana Kadwell: I don’t even remember. I just know that it was really confusing. It was just in like the inorganic chemistry, which basically just means stuff that you cannot see, and you cannot understand. That has to be, like, divine. There’s just no way. Because it’s just not– you can’t explain it. Like, it just– it just happens. I mean, genuinely, like even just life in and of itself, like, the miracle of life makes no sense. I get that–

Courtney Hopper: It’s cellular.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. Like, I get that it’s a cell and it separates and blah, blah, blah, whatever. I get all that. But it’s, it’s just, it’s insane. Like–

Courtney Hopper: It seems like a high margin for error and it’s amazing that any of us are walking around. 

Dana Kadwell: Well, I do think that. But I’m just saying, like, it just, I feel like when you get into the higher parts of science where it’s past the mathematical, right? You can’t explain it with an equation, or you can’t explain it with just, like– physics, you can understand. Like, an object in motion stays in motion until it doesn’t. 

Courtney Hopper: Right. 

Dana Kadwell: Everyone’s been hit with a ball. Like, I get it, you know? But there comes a point when you can no longer see science and there, there has to be a divine intervention.

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: But then it brings you to– because if you are, like, a very science-minded person and you believe in a cause and effect–

Courtney Hopper:  Right.

Dana Kadwell: The next question is, do you think everything happens for a reason? 

Courtney Hopper: No. Like, I don’t believe that. 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah.

Courtney Hopper: Because I believe that that is like a human cop-out. Like, it doesn’t allow you, or doesn’t force you to deal with your actions and their ramifications of those actions in a lot of ways.

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. 

Courtney Hopper: Like, for example, like, getting terribly morbid, your friend gets hit by a drunk driver or something. “Everything happens for a reason.” No, like that’s– that was human carelessness. Like, everything happened for a reason because that person was born, and he had this upbringing, and then happens to have too many things to drink, and you happen to be on the road at the same time, and there was some cosmic reason for that.

Dana Kadwell:  Right. 

Courtney Hopper: I believe, no. 

Dana Kadwell: I agree. I– and I don’t know if I always did agree with that statement, but, um, a couple of years ago I read a book by Kate Bowler. She’s a divinity professor at Duke. She got colon cancer, like intestinal cancer, essentially. So, her whole thing is about the prosperity gospel, where basically, the more you pray, the more you’ll be blessed, essentially. That you look at these mega churches who preached the prosperity gospel that they are so successful. They have great cars and they’re multimillionaires because they are better Christians than other people who are suffering in their church. It’s all about the — your prosperity is related to how much you believe in God.

Courtney Hopper:  And how that, like, wasn’t the case. 

Dana Kadwell: Right. So, she– that’s what she studied. I don’t, I don’t think she ever came out and said that that was essentially what she believed, but she was intrigued by it. Because it was right around the time when these, like, mega churches were coming around. So, she got cancer and she said, and everyone would just tell her, like, “This is God’s will, everything happens for a reason.”

And she’s like, “And then it just pissed me off.” Like, “Why?” Like, “That’s not true.” Like, “That’s not actually what it is at all. There is no reasoning behind it.” And, um, and it really, she dissects a lot of that in the book and it was, it was really, really great. It’s a great book to read if you have a friend that’s going through something hard because it helps, you know how to be a better friend. Like, there’s a whole chapter on like what you should and shouldn’t say to people. 

Um, everything happens for a reason is one of the things you should not say to people. 

Courtney Hopper: In case you’re curious. 

Dana Kadwell: And I think for me, a lot of it, it gave me a lot of peace reading it because I think you always question in the back of your mind. Like, you know, us growing up in a very conservative house, um, that I remember– and we have a sickly mother, um, who has been sick our entire life and has had, you know, health problem after health problem.

And there are moments in time when I genuinely believe that she was still sick because I stopped– I didn’t pray for her. Like–

Courtney Hopper: Like, I didn’t believe enough. And that’s why.

Dana Kadwell: Yes, yes. So, this is God trying to teach me a lesson–

Courtney Hopper: Right. 

Dana Kadwell: –To be a better Christian. Therefore, my mom had to suffer. And there was a lot of guilt with it. Because how can a six, seven, eight-year-old carry that weight?

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: That’s what we were told.

Courtney Hopper:  Right. 

Dana Kadwell: Our parents never came out and said that, but it was what we were exposed to in the church that we went to. Yeah, definitely. And I think as I got older, I, like, knew that wasn’t true, but I think really having someone that– I don’t know, that kind of spells it out a little bit more like, you know, I don’t know. It was just, it was really a lot of reassurance. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. So, another comp that I really liked that he said was when he spoke about, like, “tunnel vision,” which I can tend to have. Um, how you can miss that good piece of fruit because you were so focused on all the other details, or on some sort of mission. Have you ever felt that way?

Dana Kadwell: Yeah, but I don’t look at it in terms of because I’m focused– maybe because I’m focused on a mission. I think, a lot of times, I miss the good parts of life because I’m so focused on the hard parts of life. 

Courtney Hopper: It’s more like an attitude.

Dana Kadwell:  It is more like an attitude. So, like yesterday, we didn’t have anything going on. We were trying to finish our laundry room and the washer was making me angry because it kept walking out of the cabinet that we had just built. But, um, it was overall, a pretty calm day. But I was just– there was just a lot– I felt there was a lot on my plate. I feel, I felt like there was, I knew the week was coming up and there was a lot on my plate. And it, I just didn’t have the patience for, like, anything.

And it’s been raining every day here. The kids can’t go outside, and everyone was just in a sour mood. But it was like one of those moments. Like, we’re eating dinner, we had done –gotten takeout, and we were– and it was just a great moment. And it’s just kind of– I realized I just missed the entire day of what could have been a good day because I was so focused on my Monday, the next day.

Courtney Hopper: Yeah.

Dana Kadwell:  You know? So, I do feel that way. Like, I feel like you miss a lot because I feel like for me, it’s more negative-based and like– not like, oh, I missed this opportunity because I’m so focused on other opportunity. It’s more of I’ve missed life. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. I could see that. 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. 

Courtney Hopper: But yeah, no, I, uh, I love all of this. I think it’d be fun one day to get our, our charts. 

Dana Kadwell: I mean I’m curious what my chart is. Am I, am I like off the mark? Like did I, like, he said, he used it as a guide. I mean, like, I haven’t been using anything as a guide. 

Courtney Hopper: Just your feelings. 

Dana Kadwell: Or it’s like the recalculating, you know, like when you’re– you make a wrong turn, it’s like, alright, recalculating, recalculating. Try this one and this one, and it’ll get you back to where you’re supposed to be. No, I do think it’s super interesting. 

Courtney Hopper: I’m a Virgo, obviously. And you are–

Dana Kadwell:  An Aries. 

Courtney Hopper: An Aries. Do you have any idea what that means? 

Dana Kadwell: No. 

Courtney Hopper: Okay.

Dana Kadwell: Literally nothing. 

Courtney Hopper: Literally, you have no idea what that means. 

Dana Kadwell: Uh-uh. I know I was, it just had to do with my birthday. I think it’s– I think it’s a ram? 

Courtney Hopper: I feel like there must be lots of Virgos because I hear about Virgos a lot.

Dana Kadwell: Well, do you know what nine months from that time is? 

Courtney Hopper: It’s December. We’re all Christmas babies. 

Dana Kadwell: Yeah. 

Courtney Hopper: Maybe there are more Virgos in the world. 

Dana Kadwell: I don’t know. I know way too many people that are born in September.

Courtney Hopper:  Isn’t Sam a Virgo?

Dana Kadwell:  Yeah. Well, I think so. He’s the 11th. It must be why we work well together. Virgo and Aries. Partnership in life.

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: Partnership in business. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah, maybe.

Dana Kadwell: I know. That’s what– I did like that part where you talked about Mercury and Uranus. I thought it was a good combination. He was, like, describing us. Like, I definitely, because Mercury was street smart, you know, where rubber meets the road. Uranus is very much disruption-based, you know, get the fire going. And I feel like that is our partnership in a nutshell. 

Courtney Hopper: Got some street cred. 

Dana Kadwell: No, I think street smart is more just, I don’t know, thinking through it. 

Courtney Hopper: It’s a ram. Oh, you sent it. Oh, the personal– going back. So, the personality of an Aries explained: like their fellow fire signs, Leo. Oh my God. I’m married to a Leo. And Sagittarius, Aries is a passionate, motivated, and confident leader. Why can’t you read the rest of that? Who builds community with their cheerful disposition and relentless determination. I can definitely– I agree. I agree with that relentless determination. I’m not sure about that cheerful disposition.

Dana Kadwell: I feel like I have a cheerful disposition when it’s, like, not with you. It’s true. I mean–

Courtney Hopper: And it’s a ram. It is a ram sign. You were right. It says Aries are fiercely loyal, they won’t– oh, they won’t tear down their friends or divulge their secrets. That is true. Dana’s so secretive. 

Dana Kadwell: That is true.

Courtney Hopper:  Interesting. 

Dana Kadwell: I know, but like, how does that matter? That’s what I don’t understand. 

Courtney Hopper: Yeah. 

Dana Kadwell: Like, how does the fact that I was born in April and I’m an Aries, that’s my personality. 

Courtney Hopper: Maybe it has something to do with the stars. That’s what he was saying. 

Dana Kadwell: I know, but I’m saying–

Courtney Hopper: Maybe it’s like a secret, like juju stardust. 

Dana Kadwell: Maybe. 

Courtney Hopper: But I think too, like, if I kind of tease it out a little bit, like your, like relentless determination and my singlemindedness on, like, an idea. Like, it works well together. Because I could just move on to the next idea and never really see one to fruition. 

Dana Kadwell: Right.

Courtney Hopper:  But if it weren’t for you, you would never go down that idea path if it weren’t for me. 

Dana Kadwell: Well, yeah, I just would never, I would never move on. I would just try to make that more and more perfect.

Courtney Hopper: Right. 

Dana Kadwell: So Virgo and Aries conform emotional ties through trust and companionship that can stand against all odds. 

Courtney Hopper: Oh, that’s true. It does seem emotional. 

Dana Kadwell: There’s definitely companionship. 

Courtney Hopper: There is definitely that. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that.

Thanks everyone for gathering with us today to talk about the hustle. To learn more about Daniel Beck, visit innermakeup.net, or follow him on Instagram @InnerMakeupAstrology. 

Dana Kadwell: And to learn more about our hustles, visit CandDevents.com, thebradfordnc.com, and hustleandgather.com. Or follow us on Instagram at@CandDEvents, @TheBradfordNC, and@HustleandGather. And if you like the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and a review. 

Courtney Hopper: This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I’m Courtney. 

Dana Kadwell: And I’m Dana. 

Courtney Hopper: And we’ll talk with you next time on Hustle and Gather.