Dana:  But we love what we do. And today we’re talking with Bethany Howard, about the fear of entrepreneurship and being who you are. Bethany is the author of her book Permission Granted a blogger motivational speaker, Bethany, welcome to Hustle and Gather. 

Bethany:  Hey guys, thanks so much for having me.

Courtney:  Yeah. Thank you for coming and spending your time with us.

Bethany:  It’s a great way to spend the afternoon. I agree. 

Courtney:  And for those of you that are listening today, we are drinking, Bethany’s Permission Granted, margarita, you can find the recipe in Bethany’s book, which we will talk more about later.

Dana:  It’s very yummy.

Cheers. Cheers. 

Courtney:  I like the tea in it. It’s definitely a different take on a margarita it’s like long Island ice tea, beats more tequila. 

Bethany:  Yes. It’s really, it’s really yummy. Kate  like knocked it out of the park with this one. It was a super fun collab to do with her so much 

Dana:  fun. So I feel like we’ve all had those moments in life where like, I should write a book.

Like I like this is a storybook story or this is I have had so much adversity and I feel like a book would be amazing. So. Tell me about a little bit about your vision behind the book and what gave you the courage to write it? 

Bethany:  The vision behind the book was to create something that my readers, that women could hold that would be an, a courage moment to them that they could return to again and again, because.

You know, the blog and on social media often I’m posting my pieces, but it’s just not the same as holding something in your hand and being able to engage with it again and again, whenever, whenever you need it without having to scroll or anything like that. So that was, that was kind of the vision for the book.

I just wanted something special that somebody could hold in their hands and that they felt special. Just looking at it, just like this is for me, this is a special space that I can go to, to get reminded that I have permission granted, what was the second question? 

Dana:  What gave you the courage to write it?

Bethany:  Oh, what gave me the courage 

It wasn’t the margarita. It might’ve had something to do. It might have. It’s a really great question because it’s really bizarre to consider the fact that in the midst of a pandemic and kids doing virtual school, I decided to take on this project. And what happened was that I couldn’t come up with a reason why not?

There weren’t good enough reasons to say no to this. Like it felt right. It felt like the next best step for me. And so I just said, why not? And I just decided to kind of make it happen. 

Dana:  That’s amazing. 

Especially since like, I like just the statement of going through a global pandemic, putting on a suit virtual school, you thought why not?

I would have a list of reasons. Why not the above-mentioned. 

Bethany:  Yeah. Yeah, but it’s been, I mean, what I didn’t expect was that it was going to be such a life-giving thing for me. And so it has been a sweet and precious time in the midst of a very hard time. 

Courtney:  I love that. I mean, What amazing time of like self-reflection and to be able to like, pay that forward when everybody else is having.

Such a hard time. And I love the idea of a book too. Like, as you said, something you can hold in your hand and refer back to, I’ve never been one to like buy into the Kindle. Like for me, it’s, it’s the paper, it’s the book. It’s the turning of the pages. It’s the like bending down and like the corners has stopped my to keep track of where I’m at, you know, it’s all the like tangible aspects of it as well. 

Bethany:  Yes, it was important to me that it was something that somebody could hold in their hand and connect with and that it was pretty and that it was done well. And so that she could just dive in and take up her space. 

Courtney:  Hmm. Yeah. I love that. So we’ve looked over your website a little bit and read some of the poems in your book, which we love. And you have one of the most interesting about pages, not what I would consider, like the norm on your website that I’ve ever seen and in it. You say things that all of us think about ourselves, like. I’ve told myself all kinds of mean lies in order to avoid being myself. And what if people think I’m lame?

Like, what if I’m a failure? Like what if I think I’m cool and nobody else does, you know, let’s dig into that. Like, yeah. Talking a little bit about what kind of mean lies you’ve told yourself. How have you find that that like resonates with other people? I get totally resonated with me, for sure. 

Bethany:  Yeah, we can be really, really mean in the way that we speak to ourselves.

And you know, of course it’s not things that I would say to you. I wouldn’t say the things to you that I say to myself sometimes and what I was kind of realizing, you know, we just. In order to take up our space, we have to kind of fight the box that people try to put us in. And so that was kind of, that’s kind of what this has been about this whole journey, even as a writer and as an entrepreneur that, you know, there’s, there’s ways of doing things. Like if you ask the pros, the people that have published book after book and there’s ways of doing things. And I kind of, as a creative kind of fought against that box a little bit, and then me and lies like it they’ve gotten a little less loud. And I think it’s because I’ve just given myself permission to just be myself. So when there’s not so much pretending when I feel like less of an imposter, the mean lies have gotten a little bit less loud. And so that’s, that’s allowing me to actually pursue, you know, who I am and what makes the most sense for me, which is a total game changer.

Dana:  Oh, yeah. I mean, I feel like when you can quiet that inner critic is when you realize how much potential you actually have. And I feel like as women, a lot of times it’s massed with being feeling like we’re full of ourselves, or maybe we feel like we’re being selfish, which I think is the premise a lot of your permission, granted tagline essentially like permission granted, like you have the permission to be everything.

That you want to be. Was there a moment that, that popped in your head and you were like, this is it. This is what I want to like be about. 

Bethany:  Yeah, it is actually kind of comical. I was working with basically a creative consultant, I guess you might say, I kind of mentioned her. I was like, you’re kind of like my last book.

I’m really like counting on you to help me with this because I was really struggling with my tagline. I was struggling with who I was in this space. That I felt I had to fit into a box and I kept coming up against all of these walls and just like, I don’t know, I just couldn’t find my place. And so I asked her, I said, can you take part of the time and just look at my website and kind of try to get an idea of what I’m trying to do here.

And so she did that and she came back to me and she said, I don’t want you to change what you’re doing. And I was like, what? Like how, how, how does all of this work together? And so she helped me figure it out. But one of the things that we looked at is we were talking and just, you know, over zoom and. I was like, Oh, there’s this piece that I just wrote.

And it was about my dog and it was about how my dog, because she’s a little bit of a use for me, but she will sit. At the back door, even if it’s wide open and like want to go outside so badly. And we’ll, you know, her little nose is going crazy and she’s just like dancing there because she wants to go out so badly, but she won’t go without me.

And so she will. If I step on and onto the porch, she’ll step out to the porch. And then when we get off the porch and into the grass and she runs like she’s meant to run, and it was such a picture for me, that number one, it’s okay to need help, to get to where you’re supposed to be. Sometimes I just need somebody to take me by the hand and get me there, where I’m supposed to be.

And then I can run, like I meant to, but I might need help getting there. And so as I was. Kind of like having this conversation with her, I thought of this piece and I was like, yeah, like, you know, I just, I need somebody to be alongside of me. And I kind of realized like, that’s, that’s who I want to be for women.

That’s who I want to be and help them realize that they have permission to run. Like they’re meant to. And it’s also okay. If you need help getting there, we’re not supposed to do this stuff alone. 

Courtney:  Yeah. I, I totally love that. I feel like, especially. As a woman and like the trajectory of life and not necessarily like what your perception is, but I think a lot of times we’re affected by what we think others, people perception is of our perception of ourself.

Do you know what I mean? 

Bethany:  I think so. I think so. 

Dana:  It’s like, that’s like inception level, but 

Courtney:  it’s like woman you’re like, she thinks she’s XYZ. Right. But I think she, and I think that you act in a way that. Isn’t true to yourself because you’re so worried about what perception you’re giving off, like as a mother and as a business owner and as a wife and like you’re taught all these things.

And as a woman, like. Those things change like seasonally. And it can really feel like as you’re entering into that next season of your life or that next aspect of your life, because sometimes the seasons coincide, like, you know, you’re a mother, you’re writing a book. So you’re now this business lady, right.

Creative mother, that it can feel very much like an imposter syndrome that, that perception of like, I’m a fraud. As I’m actually just a mother and I just, you know, like cleaned up a bunch of shit that my kids put on the floor, not two seconds ago before like hopped onto the soon to tell you what an excellent author I,

Bethany:  yeah, 

Courtney:  cause I just did it too. So I think there’s a lot of that for sure. Like when you’re a woman it’s complex.

Bethany:  It’s so complex. And I remember some of my mentors and this work, I remember thinking like, Wow. Like they must have it so together to be able to like pump out book after book and, you know, present at this conference and then show up on the slide and, and then also do consulting on the side and like, Oh, I was just like, wow.

And like, it was just amazing to me. And so then, you know, last year was really hard, like really, really hard for multiple reasons. And. I remember saying to them recently, I was like, I thought you guys had it all together. Like I thought that that’s how you were able to make things happen. And they were like, Oh my goodness.

No, but I realized that as I got to know them, and as I got some like behind the scenes views, and I think that’s really important that we show up who we are, right. Where we are. Because that’s how people are encouraged. They’re not encouraged by fake. They’re not encouraged by like, Oh, she does everything right all at the time, no people want us to show up real and show up, you know, having just made a mistake or having just really bombed on something. So I’ve, it’s so important that we show up real, I think. 

Courtney:  Yeah. But like 2020 was like the great equalizer, like yes. You know, even like the newscasters. You know, broadcast were being bombed by their four year olds.

You know, like you’re like, all right, everybody actually does come from a backstory and they have stuff that’s going on beyond what they’re presenting, you know?

Dana:  I love that. I just think it’s so rare too, in this day and age, when you can’t even be real on Instagram, like you have a filter on your face and you’re afraid to even show up as who you are without the fear of judgment or someone saying like, why are there bags under her eyes?

Well, you know what, because I’m tired. Like that’s why there’s bags under my eyes, but I love that. And I think, I really feel like. The reason why we don’t show up real is fear-based right. And that was one of the things that I, one of my favorite poems in your book was courage. Where are you? And I read it and I was reading it.

And I was like, this feels like, kind of like a pump up Anthem, like, you know, kind of getting you ready for it. And I was curious, did you write that? And it’s time when fear was crippling you and you were trying to pump yourself up.

Bethany:  I believe that I wrote that one at a weekend, writing retreat with a friend.

And so it was very, it was still very much like, am I, am I really doing this? Am I really like putting a book together? And just that struggle of, you know, Fighting against fear and showing up and like, how does that work and how do I get to where I’m supposed to be? Even when I’m feeling like an imposter, even when I’m feeling this fear of like, gosh, this might be like the worst idea I’ve ever had.

 So like how do I push past that? And so that piece kind of came out of that moment of like doing the thing, but also being scared of doing the thing at the same time. Yeah. 

Courtney:  I love that. Like how. I think we’ve talked about this before a little bit, how it’s not that you don’t feel afraid. Like it’s not about that.

It’s not like let’s do something once you don’t feel afraid. Right. There’s always that fear. And I think whenever you’re doing big things and taking big leaps and making big moves, there’s always that fear and it’s accepting it and acknowledging it. And. Looking at it for what it is, but letting it walk alongside you and not let it decide your next step.

Bethany:  Yes. That has been a huge learning curve for me because, you know, fear used to just be really crippling for me. And I would. It would just make me hide. Like I would just go like underground, go dark. Like, you know, that’s just, I’m out, I’m down for the count. Like then once I realize, and I think it comes from this idea of like take taking out my space.

But once I realized that I can talk back to fear, I can have a conversation with fear, you know, why are you here? What are you trying to keep me from? What, what is worth staying? Where I am. With fear or just going ahead and dragging fear with me to whatever it’s trying to keep me from. And so eventually, yeah, fear just comes with me and I did think that to do things.

You had to have no fear. And of course the result of that is you just stay right where you are. Right.  So once I realized that, Oh, I just take fear with me. Like, it’s just, you know, you’re not driving fear, but you’re coming with me.  So that made a huge difference for me and led me to find courage.

So that’s been a fun realization that I can talk back to fear. Yeah. 

Dana:  I love that though. Like, it’s almost like you could have a role-play when you’re in those moments and I actually. And you saying, this is putting into words, but I am a verbal processor. And so when I have to have a really hard conversation with somebody, I have it in my car on the way to driving somewhere.

I’m sure people think I’m crazy because I don’t, and maybe it’s normal now because there’s Bluetooth and people just think I’m on the phone, but like I would talk through the conversation and I would do it a couple times. So I felt confident in what I was saying and it, and a lot of it, it wasn’t because.

It was because the conversation was hard because I was fearful of the outcome. I was fearful of what was going to come back at me of how being caught off guard or having to come up with an explanation on the spot. And I wanted, I wanted to search what I really felt, you know, and what I thought I was right or wrong or whatever. But that’s what I think of is exactly that those scenarios that I do is when you’re afraid, it’s almost like having a conversation with it. Like. Them saying you can’t do this and be like, well, actually this is what I can do. I’ve done X, Y, Z, and then they’re putting back, well, you didn’t do that very well.

Well, maybe I didn’t, but I have learned from that mistake and you like this constant back and forth with it. I love that. 

Bethany:  Yeah. It’s an incredibly empowering to be able to have a conversation with fear and win the argument. 

Dana:  And win the argument, yes, 

I totally agree. Well, I feel like too, like with writing a book, it’s, it’s not writing a book I’m not saying it’s easy, but I feel like the next step is what do you do with all this information you’ve put down. And did you have any naysayers in your life that were like, you shouldn’t do this. 

Bethany:  Oh, yeah. Like when I was doing some research and I’m part of several groups on Facebook and one of them is very, very, a lot of them do like published to Amazon and published through Amazon. And it’s amazing. Like if you, if you do it right, you can, you can make some cash. And I would, that was a totally new thing for me.  So I’ve been part of that group for a long time and I kind of threw it out there, like, Hey, I’m thinking of doing a book and I’m thinking of doing it.

Like on my own and going with an offset printer and, you know, doing everything on my own and just wondered, you know, what you guys thought about that. And they were completely adamantly against it. They were like, don’t do it. And I was like, Uh, no it’s okay. Well, I expected some pushback, but they were like, you know, unless you have this gigantic audience, you don’t want to do this.

And so I was, it was a little bit disheartening to hear that from people who are doing the work. So I had to kind of like step back and. What I realized was I wasn’t, I wasn’t looking for permission from them. I was just in, you know, research mode. I was just gathering opinions. And so I had to kind of stop and think like, okay, well, this is good to know.

It’s good feedback, but they’re not me. They don’t know what I want for this project. And they may have differing values, different goals for what they want for the project. For their projects. And so I just had to decide, well, you know, I’m not, I’m not looking to you to like sign off on this. So I kind of had to just, you know, move forward and I have, there’s been a few times in my life when I’m not like an Enneagram three who like would really thrive on that kind of stuff. But when somebody tells me no, or you can’t do that, there have been many times that I’ve just like, okay, well that’s how I’m going to do it then,

because you said this is not possible. I’m going to go ahead and do it exactly the way that you say 

Courtney:  Are you a  seven.

Bethany:  I’m a nine actually  I’m a nine I’m a nine with what’s becoming a strong eight wing.

Dana:  I feel that I’m an eight with a wing nine opposite. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I love that. I feel like that is a skill that I wish I had so much earlier on in my life. And it’s one that I am trying to instill in my children is that discerning voice that it’s okay. That we don’t agree on something. It’s okay.

We won’t even, maybe we agree on the outcome. We don’t agree how to get there necessarily. And knowing when,  how much weight you give that voice? Yeah. When to know if this person is, and I don’t think anyone in your group is trying to push you down or hinder you, but they were just saying, this was my experience and that’s not everybody’s experience, you know?

Yeah. But I think it’s such a skill that. I mean, I think I literally just gathered in the last few years to say, like, I hear you, I respect you, but I’m not going to take your advice because I know what I need. And I trust me more right now. And you know what I feel, that’s, I just, I think it’s a lost a loss skill that we have.

Courtney:  I think it’s harder to, to discern when it’s coming from a good place. Right? Like, they’re not saying this to like dampen your spirit or to change your actions. Like they’re literally trying to help you. But in the end, it’s not helpful, you know? 

Bethany:  Right. Or maybe it was, and that it is, it just helps me really lean into, you know, no, actually this is what I want for this project.

This is what I want, what I want it to look like. And I tell you, it’s something that really made a huge difference for this project was that I had my friend, my designer, she believed in this project is just as much as I did. Boom. I’m almost getting emotional. I didn’t see that coming, but that was huge because she was there.

She was kind of like, you know, the guidance for me because I would say, well, gosh, if I do it this way, it’s so much cheaper and it can be done like right now and all of these things, but she was, she would always come back and say, okay, But this is what you said you wanted, like, this is this, these are the things that we’ve talked about that are priorities for you.

And so there were several times that she kind of had to like, bring me back to center and that I’m telling you that just made all the difference in the world to just have somebody that was like, I mean, she was kind of like my coworker in this to bring this book about. And I mean, I’m just not sure that it would be here without her, honestly.

Courtney:  So now you’ve written this book, right. And I like that’s super creative. And like, we experienced this a little bit where our business started very solely, almost in the creative realm, like being a wedding planner and designing and making it pretty and like having fun, literally it was a hobby based on the paycheck that we got for a very long time, but then like scaling it up to be a business where we’re like, all right, like we’re either going to make this a hobby slash not do it, or we’re gonna make this a business. So what has been the hardest thing about kind of that scaling and like being self-employed cause now you’re kind of employed by herself. Yeah. 

Bethany:  Yeah, for sure. Cause you know, all of a sudden I’m like I have stuff to do. Like I guess just, you know, I work from home and, but ever since you know, September, October, it’s just been kind of full steam ahead. And I feel like one of the hardest things for me has just been like making myself do the things that I don’t want to do. That’s really hard because, you know, there’s nobody saying, Hey, did you do this? And so I feel like that’s been really hard and the marketing, you know, It hasn’t been maybe my favorite part, but I, I feel good about, you know, what the book is and you know, how it can support somebody’s journey to discovering all that they are.

And so in that way, like the marketing has been sort of okay, but it’s hard to do the things that I like dread, like email, for example, I just, I just want everything to be fun thank you very much. And if it’s, if it’s not, you know, it’s just a little bit harder to make it happen, but it is happening and I I’m becoming a little bit more diligent, I think, but yeah, it’s been interesting to kind of like, make that transition because I kind of thought, okay, when the book arrives deep breath, like the hard part is over and I was wrong, I was wrong because it’s, I’m still having fun.

And that’s one thing that I’ve learned is that I didn’t think that I could have the time of my life and be in over my head at the same time, but that’s where I have found myself time and again, and so. I’m still having fun and I’m still on a gigantic learning curve and it’s somehow some way I’m okay with that as a nine, who prefers to know everything and to be at peace and be comfortable.

I really like comfortable. I just discovering that I’m okay being on this gigantic learning curve that I’m still like, you know, it’s still exhausting. Like it’s still a climb. 

Dana:  Oh man. So much to unpack there, but so true. I feel like that is like the tagline for entrepreneurship. It is, it is like a double whammy of like you are in over your head, you’re overwhelmed, but you can’t imagine doing anything differently.

Like it is still the most exhilarating and exciting thing all at the same time. Well, we’ve talked a lot about how sometimes our best, like our best business moves have been in the tension. It’s when we have, we have lived in that tension and we’ve absorbed it and we’ve accepted it and something amazing is always come out of it.

Bethany:  I love that. 

Dana:  Yeah. But I think that’s just, when you get real, you start figuring it out. Like. Is this what I really want. And sometimes the answer is no, and which is how we grew a team, because I was like, I don’t want to do this. I want someone else to do this for me. 

Bethany:  That makes total sense to me because you’ve got to be able to do the things that only you can do. And that’s, that’s important to move a business forward 

Courtney:  So was there ever a moment. And this is kind of a, I don’t know, question like to ask everybody, was there ever like an Oh shit moment when you’re writing this book or getting it off the ground when you were like, this isn’t going to get done like this isn’t going to happen.

Bethany:  Yeah. I feel like there was a moment when we had been working off a certain set of numbers for our pricing, for the books and all of a sudden that changed. And I was just kind of like. That’s it like this is happening. This is we’re done. Like Amazon I’m coming back and you know, it’s, my husband was like this could still happen.

We can make this happen. This could still work. And so it was a little bit it was a dance of working with a printer of standing up for myself and then also being. A person of grace, because then, then, you know, COVID has been hard on ever. We won every business at every level and 

Courtney:  except for maybe amazon.

Yeah. You know, I think they’ve benefited. I think he’s good.

Bethany:  I think, I think they’ve done quite well.  So it, it was just a moment. And again, my, my designer is she, she helps me walk through that and just because I wanted them to feel good about our collaboration, you know, our working together. I want them to feel good about it and I wanted to feel respected and I did like, they were amazing. Just, I can’t say enough about them. And they, the other amazing piece was that the gentleman that I worked with there, I’m going to guess he was 40 mid forties, 50 something. He totally got it, guys. He got the book and I was like, wow, because when I talked to him, he was like, Hey, you know, we always run extra copies.

And I was wondering if I could give one to my goddaughter. Cause I really feel like she needs this encouragement. And I was like, yes, yes, yes. And then he said, can I save one for my five-year-old? And I was like, Oh my word, of course, yes please have one there at home for when she, and it’s just so it’s just, I don’t know.

And I’m sure you guys have experienced this, but it’s just, there’s nothing like when somebody gets it, that has no like familial like ties to you. Yes. 

Dana:  Right. Who’s not obligated to feel that way. 

Bethany:  Exactly. And it’s just been like so amazing. That’s been my favorite part of like people getting the book and interacting with it.

And I hear, Oh, this is my favorite piece. Or I really I’ve really loved this question. And it’s been just such a gift really to just understand, you know, the different ways that people are resonating with the book. It’s just been such a joy. 

Dana:  Yeah. I mean, I, I got it right after we talked and because I was like, Hey, probably should read this book.

And you know, I follow you online and I’ve always felt very motivated. And I used to tag Courtney all the time or send it to her and say, check this out. Totally resonates. Yeah. But yeah, it was, it was very surprising. Like I got it and I, I, I felt like it was one of those things that you have to set some time to, to really work through it because it’s not a flippant read.

It’s not like, Oh, I’m gonna read this book, like between dinner and like games with the kids. It’s like, you have to be in the mindset to be introspective and to really look. And feel deeply and to process it, but I feel like your words are one that make you do that. Like, it’s the things that you, that you feel like you’re the only one that thinks about yourself or you’re the only one that says over and over in your head and here it is on paper. I was like, Oh, someone else feels that way. Like, yeah. You know, maybe I’m conditioned to feel that, or, you know, maybe like let’s dissect that and dig deep into why I feel that way. 

Bethany:  So that’s amazing.

Dana:  You did a great job. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I haven’t worked all the way through it. I actually bounce around in it, based on, it’s just what I’m, what am I feeling that day? Like. You know, let’s, let’s go through it. 

Bethany:  That was important to me that it was kind of, because I’m not a highly structured person. Maybe, you know, everybody’s gathered by that, by listening to this podcast up until this point. But I wanted a book. I didn’t want it to be like day one, day two.

I didn’t want it to have, you know, day of the week or a plan. I just wanted it to be, I wanted it to be that way that you could use it. However you wanted to use it. And so I love hearing that you’re using it that way. That’s awesome. 

Courtney:  So do you have another book coming up or is, what is your next book going to be about if you think you’re going to write one?

Bethany:  I am. I’m still figuring that out. I think it could be a couple of things. A podcast could be next for me. I also think that like the whole mindset of permission, granted. I feel like I might need to put that on paper and just to really understand, I mean, the first book does that, but at the same time, I think I need to like really dig into the nitty gritty of it for people to be able to really sink their teeth into what it is.

And for me, like, it’ll just be a good. A good way for me to explore everything that it is, but I definitely see like another book that maybe cause I have some pieces, like there are pieces that are all about. My mothering, my kids, there are pieces about the hard struggles that we have in interacting with people who are different from us, whether that’s race or whatever it might be.

My husband is black, my kids are biracial. And so it’s, it’s definitely a space that I spend a lot of time in. And so maybe that’s. Maybe there’s a book of just those pieces. So I’m not sure completely what all is next, but any, and all of those, like I’m really excited about. So we’ll see, I’ll have to sit down to kind of prioritize what gets to happen first.

Dana:  Well, I know whatever you come up with is going to be great and meaningful and beautiful because you are beautiful writer. 

Bethany:  Oh gosh. Yes. I just don’t even know how I ended up here, but I mean, I do and I don’t, but I’m just thankful that I’ve found my way here and been given this opportunity and it feels really amazing to take up my space with all of the parts of me.

And I feel like that’s so important for every woman to be able to explore all those different parts of her because our mothering is important. Yes. But also a perfectly written sentence is also important. And so, yeah. Right. And so it’s, it’s okay for us to own all of the pieces of us. And so I think. You know, that’s really what this book is about is just, you know, my kids getting to see me stepping into all that I am that I’m not just the one that cooks dinner and does the laundry.

So it’s been good for them. I think to see that, Oh, mommy’s working and mommy has something that she’s working on and it’s just been good for all of us. 

Courtney:  Yeah. Well, we love that. Well, thank you so much for spending this 40 minutes or whatnot with us. We totally appreciate it. 

Bethany:  Yeah. 

Courtney:  Thanks everyone for gathering with us today, to talk about the hustle, to check out Bethany, visit bethanyhoward.com.

Read her book Permission Granted, or follow her on Instagram at Bethany Permission granted. 

Dana:  And to learn more about our hustles, visit Sandy events.com or hustleandgather.com or follow us on Instagram at Sandyevents and at HustleandGather. And if you liked this show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and a review.

Courtney:  This podcast is a production of Earfluence.. I’m Courtney 

Dana:  and I’m Dana.

Courtney:  And we’ll talk with you next time on Hustle and Gather..