Courtney: And I always say that we would literally get nothing done if it were just for one of us. One, we would never have, not that you don’t have ideas, but you would never have the like, okay, this is going to work and going to happen. Let’s go ahead and do this, cause you’d be just risk assessing the whole time.

So we would never actually take the steps. We would literally never, ever get anything done. It’d be like, here’s a great idea and it would end there. So that’d be like, well, what’s the next step? Because I do, I feel like we’re working on our e-course, which is becoming out in a couple of months.

And even though I thought it was like a great idea and I could see, I could see the product, like, oh, it would kind of look something like this, like getting started. It was just, that was where it stopped for me. Like how do we take that first step? Like, how should this be scaffolded? What should this be like sketched out as, and then I can fill in the blanks, you know? But it was really hard for me to visualize from that point on like what it should look like I just felt like we should do it. 

Dana: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it’s, it’s, it’s hard to think about not being a partnership because it’s all, you know, you know? I don’t know. I agree with that. I think that there’s A lot that I can’t imagine doing without somebody beside me. I don’t know if I would ever be able to walk through this job and not have hired like a CFO. You know what I mean? 

Yeah. like I’d have to have someone else It’s like doing some stuff for me in general, because at the core of who I am, like, I am like a low-level lazy person. Like I know, it don’t 

Courtney: I don’t think that’s true.

Dana: I don’t think I’m, well, maybe, maybe my mental health makes me lazy, but like sometimes they get so overwhelmed and so burnt out that I cannot bring myself to like, do anything and I can procrastinate and put it off. And, put it off. And it makes me feel lazy. My whole life I was called, I was told I was lazy. Maybe that’s just my childhood coming up. 

Courtney: Yeah. Which brings up a good point. Like how, when they were talking about in their partnership, how they have to work hard to not go back to their childhood 

Dana: Yeah It’s so 

Courtney: It’s so hard 

Dana: because you, and the difference is you have so much history and you have so many stories and you have so much emotions that can just be brought back in a snap of a finger.

You know, I always felt like I, and I’ve said this before, like I was forgotten a lot as a kid and like, I, was always fearful that I would, you know, just be kind of lost in the shuffle, like just lost in like the abyss and there was a, and it wasn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t have a terrible childhood.

I was genuinely a happy kid and I had things, but it wasn’t like easy. I mean, I remember there was with mom being sick. There was a lot of really hard things and it just wasn’t, there was no value to that. I feel like no one ever cared that, like, it was hard for me. you know? And so sometimes like, when you talk about like the history and like how you had to be the mom and do all this, and I’m not discounting this, what had happened, it’s those same emotions like, well, it’s not like it was a walk in the park over on my side of it, you know, but that’s not the point of what you’re trying to make at all.

that You’re not discounting it. I think that’s where my childhood self comes in is like, I have a hard time hearing somebody. and, and hearing them for what they’re saying and not hearing, I feel this, therefore, you can’t feel. Do you know what I mean? 

Courtney: how you can both feel it, right? 

Dana: Like You can both be feeling the same thing. And one is not more than the other, because I’ve always had to, I always felt like I had to feel more. I had to react more you know, and like I always was told like, oh, you’re so moody and you would just blow up. And I was like that’s because like, it was the only way someone would actually notice that I had an emotion is by being irrational about something stupid. 

Courtney: Yeah. 

Dana: Yeah 

Courtney: I think for me, like, I, I was very protective of Dana and Jeremy growing up, like very protective. Like, did they get in trouble? It would make me so upset. Unless it was something related to me, even then I had like some twinge of guilt about it. So I think that I tend to speak for Dana, obviously, as you’ve mentioned the podcast a lot, like in a protective nature, like someone will say something and I’ll be like, well, don’t bring that up to Dana or don’t ask Dana or don’t whatever. And not like Dana can’t handle it, but like I understand Dana’s tendency, Dana has a hard time saying no sometimes things or like, she has this I can do it all kind of, not complex, but M.O. You know, that I’m like, don’t ask her.

One cause it’s going to be bad for Dana, but two, it’s going to blow back on me as well, or like make the environment tense, like just don’t ask her. And that’s what I think I tend to be that protective sister a lot and like speak for you when maybe I shouldn’t like make, let you make your own decision. 

Dana: It’s true. But I did like that. I thought that was really good advice and it makes me really think. about, 

Courtney: And then, and then also I’m like the queen of the zinger. So there’s so many times where I’m, 

Dana: oh, I know. It’s why, it’s why your nickname is the asshole because you act like an asshole, 

Courtney: but I pull it back so many times. And there’s just times where it’s just too good. Like it has to be said, like it can’t not be shared. But I hold back so much, yeah. 

Dana: It’s always an it’s not, it’s not in like a, oh, we’re, we’re joking around time. It’s always in some like super heavy moment. And I’m like,

Courtney: cause every, every really funny thing has some kernel of truth it. 

Dana: I guess. 

Courtney: Yeah. I don’t know. It’s I it’s a problem with my husband too. Like he doesn’t like it and those moments too, and he’s like, seriously, why, why right now? And I’m like, because I can’t, that was too good. It was literally too good. I have filtered through it all and it, that one had to be said, 

Dana: yes, 

Courtney: so yeah. 

Dana: I think this is a big topic for us to talk about is when they, she talked about when they started, first off, she said they both took time to think about it. And I was like, oh, I don’t think I had that option. But when they came in, they came in to this business agreement, like they weren’t sisters where they had actual agreements, decided they were going to behave like professionals around each other. They weren’t going to bicker and fight and had this air of professionalism. And that is not our story. 

Courtney: It’s not our story. 

Dana: Not at all. Like there was no agreements that were made and we still don’t always act necessarily professionally. I think we’ve gotten better since the pandemic; I think at some point in the, pandemic, me and you like had a conversation about how we need to stop fighting in front of the employees.

Courtney: So we had like separate time to what I call arm wrestle it out and then have the meeting Yeah. 

Dana: it was, it was. like, I’m sure it’s exhausting to hear us talk all the time. 

Courtney: I know, probably was. And it wasn’t like you could pick a side, any side you picked was going to be wrong on some level. There was really no winning. 

Dana: There was no winning for them. It was like mom and dad fighting 

Courtney: I feel like one, and I said this in the podcast. They came well, they came into that they’re business with 10 plus years of experience in other industries, you know? So they had like all this work experience.

I think when we first started talking about C&D I don’t even know if you were even out of college yet. You weren’t, right? So like we had no work experience, no life experience, and oftentimes when I like look back on it and I want to speak badly of it, I’m like, we were like 22 and 25 and then I meet other 22- and 25-year-olds. What was my expectation. Right? Like it was clearly unrealistic even like, when we talk about like building the Bradford, we were still relatively young and new in our careers. 

Dana: yes, I don’t know why we didn’t. because it got, early on it got so convoluted because it was like, you own this and I own like you on this property and I own that property, and then you’re going to live on this property or You’re going to pay part of this rent for this property. And then we’re all going to pay rent to this property. Like it was just a mess. I don’t know. At what point, why we didn’t just say, can we pause? Can we, can we write this down? Number one cause I can’t remember who’s paying who for what and, this, you know, and, and talk about the future.

And I think for us, the biggest issue is when we were in the middle of the Bradford, we couldn’t see the future at all. Not that we were like, we couldn’t see like where we’re going to be now. 

We literally could not think about the next day other than the day that w we were in. And so the idea of ever possibly moving off property like, I don’t know It was not a thought, right. 

Courtney: We can’t pay for food now, how are we going to buy another house? 

Dana: Right So it just, and, and it was really short-sighted because I think it, what it did is it caused a lot of really, really hard, really, really hard conversations and a lot of really hard, like hurt feelings and mis-intentioned, and you know, all that happened all because we didn’t take the time to sit down and say, this is what we’re agreeing to as a group. Because it wasn’t just me and you going into business. It was me and you and Sam and Mikael. All, all of that was wrapped up into it. 

Courtney: I think they don’t have that. It seems like they don’t have that same. 

Dana: Yeah. But like, it was, very, it was very much like, cause when I’m talking about okay, we are going to pay, we’re going to pay rent to this, whatever, like, that’s not just my finances, you know, that’s not it’s combined finances.

Right. So I don’t know. It was, I, I think it’s probably as probably one of our biggest like partnerships, sister mistakes, and not that it like derailed us terribly, but it’s, it definitely created. a lot of grief when there shouldn’t have been any grief. 

Courtney: Yeah. I mean, I think C & D like that was like innocent enough. Nobody was taking any money. So there wasn’t really anything to talk about and definitely going into the Bradford we should have. But I, I think that it was just like one step in front of the other and it was like dealing with whatever shoe just fell So I, and I think now when I think back on about like, Mental health and you know, like taking that time for yourself and like what do you need?

Like that wasn’t even like an option then, right? Like it would have never gotten built, like literally would have never. So like even taking the time to go see a therapist in the middle of it felt like time taken away from things that we should have been doing. Not that it was very constructive things to do. Cause it definitely was. 

But I remember even thinking then like, how are we going to fit this in? Right. But yeah, I definitely, I definitely agree that we should have had an agreement and it should have all been written out and a number should have been assigned and whatnot. 

Dana: Well, I mean, and just like, and just basic good business. I think that for us, there was a point when everything got refinanced, right. Cause we, cause we had, to, and we created a real estate LLC, and per our lawyer just for like liability stuff. And, and to me, like when I think back at like where our biggest misstep was, it was at that point because I can excuse the beginning.

I can excuse that But I can’t excuse that when you’re in the middle of it. And at this point you’ve already had conflict. You’ve already had tons of conflict about everything you can imagine We’ve had conflict about where the trash can go. We’ve had. conflict About how, like how often the kids can ride their dirt bikes on the property.

Like there has been conflict over stupid shit this entire time. And at that point was when we should have said, okay, we’re, we’re creating this new LLC, right? This real estate, LLC, this is what it should encompass. And truly it should have encompassed both properties and that’s what it should have done, and it should have just bought it and it should have just called it even and been done with it. And then we had an agreement of how that was all going to go and, and that’s, that is where you, I feel like I kicked myself a lot and like, like, I said, I can excuse the beginning.

Cause you didn’t know what was going into, but I did very well we were getting into, when we reorg everything, like we reorganized it and all that stuff. 

Courtney: I think too like at that point. And I think this comes back to like one of their good points is there there’s so much that had like festered. Do you know what I mean?

There’s so much under the surface that it felt like to bring up anything would be the end of everything. Do you know what I mean? So it’s just kind of like a fake it till you make it like, kind of going on status quo. Everything’s fine. Everything’s fine. Everything’s fine. And then, you know, things would like pop up, but they would have less emotional weight, you know, later on down the road.

So I definitely think there is like that point of not letting things fester, which I don’t think we really let things fester now. Like I don’t think that there’s a lot of, on my end there’s not, you can tell when something’s under the surface, Dana has a, probably a greater ability to squash things. I don’t know, 

Dana: I don’t, I don’t let things fester because if it is too much, I will say something. I do let things sit for a while because a lot of times. I would say probably 50% of the time, how I’m feeling in that moment has nothing to do with anything but myself and I can normally get myself to the other side of it. And if I can’t get myself to the other side of it is when I’m like, okay, this is bigger than me.

Like, this is not just a me issue. Like This is something, this is a, a core issue that I feel like I need to address or whatever. So I don’t think I let things fester, but yeah, no, I totally agree. I think I do think that I think that there was a point when we were not honest with ourselves, and we were not honest with like with, with everything.

And there was a lot of, there was a lot of. Where we got through the hard time and you’re like, hey, you got through it. It’s fine. Let’s just move on. Let’s forgive and forget 

Courtney: Apparently we didn’t deal with that thing. 

Dana: Right. But if you Don’t deal with it. You can’t really forgive and forget it. And I think that’s what it was is we never really dealt with the true hurt that happened and like the true, like, and because I think what it did is it questioned a lot of like our intentions with each other. And so when something comes up, you go back to that place. And that never healed, like the intention of how, like, of how I feel about you or whatever.

It never really healed. And so when it, when that wound open back up, it was like, and it was shocking because we hadn’t dealt that feeling of not trusting the other person’s intentions, and such a long time I think it was worse. Like, I think it was a worse feeling. It was a worse, like, it was much bigger than it would have been if we had just dealt with it at that time.

 It felt like you were like more of a betrayal in a lot of ways, because not, not that you betrayed me necessarily. It was that our relationship was betrayed like, oh, this was all built like sand You know what I mean? and like oh, all this hard work and all this like progress, it was bullshit. It was nothing. It was just fake, even though I know it’s not the truth. That’s how it felt in the moment 

Courtney: In the moment. But then I think, I, I feel like the outcome and like how, when those things come up and how they get dealt with and the, like the expediency of how they get dealt with, I think is a tribute to what the relationship really is.

Do you know what I mean? Like, okay. Those things are going to pop up, but I definitely think that, but I, I think there’s that in a lot of relationships, probably most every relationship. When you’re talking about money and you’re talking about livelihoods and you’re talking about business, like it can’t be there.

Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn’t allow you to move forward and like in an authentic and productive way. So I think that it actually like puts a magnifying glass on it, whereas normally in a relationship you could, you know, see that person casually 10 times a year and not ever have to deal with that shit.

Right, this, you’re going to see him for the two hours and that’s it, you know, but it’s just not that way when you are sitting next to somebody and building something and trying to make even future decisions with somebody that I think it has to be dealt with.

It’s definitely like, I think partnerships aren’t for everybody. And I think if you can’t take a really hard look at yourself and you can’t really do that introspection, it’s never going to work. 

Dana: Oh yeah. But like, I think back to some of our fails here recently and, you know, when I think about different ventures that haven’t worked in a lot of the reasons why it hasn’t worked is because we had to bring in basically a third partner and how much that failed miserably, like.

it’s like, we’re like a hive mind here and we can’t bring in another person. Like, and it’s not, I don’t think it’s, three’s a crowd necessarily. I just think that it’s, it’s so hard to, to go into business with somebody else after we’ve done it, the two of us for so long, you know? 

Courtney: I think it is more or less on a much, much micro scale, if I really think about it for the purpose of this podcast, that it is just like history repeating itself, you know, like we clearly didn’t learn the lesson. We thought it only applied to us and we’re like, oh wait, no, actually that applies to other things too. Even things that you’re in financial control over, but maybe having like a creative partner or someone that you’re bringing in it applies. So I think it’s just a lesson you know, we hadn’t fully learned and now we have, lesson learned.

No, I also loved how she, when they were talking about, they love seeing what they both said this, what she does without me. 

Dana: But what is that? 

Courtney: I think you do a lot without me, as it pertains to your house. 

Dana: Yeah, I actually, I felt really like inspired by that. Like I felt really intrigued about, and I loved how they had like side hustles that like, and I think it’d be neat to think about a branch of that.

Like, it’d be really cool to kind of, this is my thing that I’m doing and it feeds me and it excites me and I love it. I don’t know what that is necessarily, but I like got me thinking, like what, like what would that be? Like? I really loved that because I do think you would, I would everybody who like both of us, if we had those things would evolve so much more and be more.

Courtney: Oh yeah, not that we’re doing it separately, but definitely doing it together. I’ve thought that about teaching this year, even in the middle of it, and like, like fitting it into the schedule and trying to do the best job that I can do. I was talking to somebody, I was like, this is really stretching. Like it’s really, really stretching me in a different way that I really enjoy.

Like, I think is good for me. Not that it’s easy for me, but it’s good for me. Like, it’s definitely a stretch and out of my norm and I’ve really enjoyed that, but I’ve thought about, and I’ve actually looked into it. Cause my BFF, Krista, she is a yoga instructor and she’s found an online source, a great online source to get her 300 hours, which is the next step after the 100 hours, but there’s also a 100-hour online course. And so I really thought about 

Dana: becoming a yoga Instructor? 

Courtney: Not for the purpose of instructing it to anybody, but for, just for the purpose of getting those 100 hours. Which would certify me as an instructor, but I, I could definitely see myself operating somewhere, like in the wellness retreat 

Dana: but like, why wouldn’t you instruct people? I mean, not like, I mean, not like every, like you wouldn’t have tried multiple classes, but I mean. 

Courtney: Sure. Like, like a one-off like, right. Like if I was like in a retreat setting and if it were like a, no, no, no, no, no, not never. I would not be a, like, I wouldn’t define myself as yoga instructor because I wouldn’t have the bandwidth necessarily to instruct class. once a week, twice a week, whatever, maybe I would, I don’t know. I don’t know if given that I’m not there. 

Dana: don’t put the limit on that.

Courtney: I’m not going to put the limit on it, but I I’ve thought about, about doing that. And then I do look at my schedule, like really hard, like, okay, when do I have the space to do that? Right.

Like kind of clearing it up or whatnot, but I think it’s important to prioritize some of those things, those things that like stretch and grow you. And it may not be this semester. Obviously we’re doing a lot this semester, but maybe in the fall or something, or maybe next winter. 

Dana: Yeah. I don’t know what it would be. I don’t know. I think, I think I have to really like marinade on it to figure out what. I like really love 

Courtney: Dana has an amazing ability to make functional spaces. Like you’re really great at like spatial awareness and, organization and like how,

Dana: I can’t measure to save my life. 

Courtney: I’m not saying the practical part of it, the more like conceptual part of it. Like you do have a really great way of doing that. Like, I could definitely see and when they were talking about like building something or whatnot. Like I could totally see that, sticking it out there, building something and designing things together. I also love like the color part of it, like the design and like 

Dana: This is meant to be separate, not together 

Courtney: whatever, do you want to take a yoga class with me? I will instruct you. 

Dana: Oh Lord. Yes. I thought that was great. And I think my favorite, like businessy, like, like personal business takeaway, as she says, is it is such a gift to have a space. Like I loved that cause I, I do feel that. And I feel like there’s a lot of things that are so helpful that you can alleviate on whether that is like a community event, whether that is, you know, a grieving family. And I know that like all those 

Dana: yeah. Like just, and it’s not, not for money, just like, hey, like use this, we want to be of service to you.

But then at the same time, you think about it as a, as from a business standpoint. is, I think we talked about this on our last podcast. is like finding that pocket of need, and I do feel like space to hold events and to hold gatherings, right, of people in whatever, for whatever reason, whether it is for a corporate function, whether it is for a birthday party, whether it is for celebrating someone’s marriage, like there is such a gift to be able to have a warm, welcoming space. 

Courtney: Yeah, well air conditioned.

Dana: Yeah, but I mean, like, I just, I think that I and I’ve said this before, I’ve always struggled with the, with the frivolity of weddings and events in general. Like it’s sometimes when you take a step back and you’re like, there’s like literally people dying and starving and you’re spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a wedding.

And there’s a, to me there’s like a hard, it’s hard for me to really see the value and like I’m actually impacting anybody’s life, and I’m not here to say like open a wedding venue because it’s what the world needs, you know? But there is something impactful about being able to create a space where people can gather.

And I’m not saying that to pat myself on the back, I think it’s more of like, no matter what, whatever you’re in, whatever, whatever market you’re in, whether it’s in the events industry or whether it’s in the creative industry or whether it’s just in corporate, I think. that there’s, when you can sometimes take a look at what you’re doing. Is there something that you can do within that realm and fill that pocket, you know, is meaningful. And I just, what made me think about, about that when she said that 

Courtney: Two thoughts on your thoughts is the older I get, cause I’m not aging backwards, the older I get, the more relevance I see in gathering, like I see more of the value and more of the reason I see more of the reason to like, celebrate those milestones or more in those milestones, creating those community events and things like reasons for gathering.

Cause I, I feel like it seemed very frivolous 10 years ago to me, like when I just was thinking about, well, I could buy a car, I could have this event and I don’t see it that way anymore I see it very much as like, we are creating an intentional environment in space that people who may not have seen each other for years are gathering and may never see each other again, like this may be it right.

And they’re gathering and having making these memories and these moments together. And I don’t think it’s frivolous any longer, but I did have a hard time with it for a while. but also I feel like sometimes I take it for granted, like, especially when I’m in the mix of it. And like when we were in the middle of like 2021, just like the churn and burn wedding, like in out and out, like this client needs this or that client needs this, or like, what problem are you working through next?

I tended to lose the magic of the Bradford. And then all I had ever had to do was walk back over there and you’re like, oh my God, this is like such a magical space. So when she was like talking about her space and she’s like, and she’s like, it’s a vibe and I love it. It’s a beautiful space. And you can feel that positive energy.

I walk over the Bradford and that’s exactly what I feel is like the positive energy and like all of the love and, that’s not just us, but that people have been married there. And our people who work for us, like how much love and care they have for the Bradford. I just think it’s palpable. Like you

Dana: But don’t you feel that about it’s so weird to me, like how you can walk into a space and you could feel like how someone has cared for, it. and it feels like a living, breathing thing.

Courtney: And she is 

Dana: Right. But she is, but like when she was talking about her space and she was saying, it’s so warm, and so welcoming. and It’s a vibe and all that stuff. I was like, it’s because of you two.

That’s why, it’s not just because you painted it. Well, and it’s not because you put a nice chair somewhere it’s because of who the energy and the love that you put that you’ve literally put into the bricks and the, and the drywall and all that.

And I, And I know that sounds so hokey, you know, I’m not a hokey person, but like, that’s how I feel about it. And I do think that, and I, I don’t know if it’s like, I don’t know if it’s like, something, cosmic karma, whatever, but I feel like whatever, I do feel that about our people. And it’s why it’s so important when our hires for the Bradford are so right, is that because they pour that into it constantly and consistently. And I, And I think you feel it when you walk in this space, like, 

Courtney: Cause you, I mean, cause you can feel their outrage when someone has harmed the space. Can you believe that somebody whacked this Bush or can you believe like they are so upset about it? Like you’re like, called the contractor, it’s going to be fine. Like we can fix it. We’ll charge the client. It’s not a big deal, but they are like so indignant about it. And I love that. 

Dana: Yeah, no, I agree I love that. I think it’s neat seeing someone like love what they do. So much and I kind of walk into that passion and yeah, 

Courtney: it definitely makes me think like, Ooh, what’s our next thing.

Dana: I felt like they were so much nicer than we are in general. Like the way they talk about like, I’m and maybe, and we are nice to each other on other people’s podcasts. I will say that like, we’re very cordial and whatnot, And not that we’re not nice in person. but like we are totally. like, 

Courtney: There’s a certain level of like a sass and grit that comes with us. That’s just part of our brand. That’s just who we are. Like, we literally grew up that way. You should ask any of our husbands, like going to a family gathering. It was like a roast every time. 

Dana: It was 

Courtney: And we are a toned-down version of that. Maybe 

Dana: Yeah. I love that. And we were so excited. We’ve talked about it. And this, I think we talked about it in this podcast that we are starting a new series called perfecting the partnership where we interview other partners and they kind of come to us with a problem and we weigh in as, you know, arbiters and say, who we think is right and who we think is wrong.

Yeah. I doubt we ever, will agree. which is the beauty of it. And we are going to, we all partnerships. So, whether they are sisters or not, But. 

Courtney: Yeah. So if you’re a partner out there and you’d like to be on our show, 

Dana: Reach out. 

Courtney: Reach out to Sarah, yes.

Thanks everyone for gathering with us today to talk about the Hustle. For our episode with Marni and Willa, we are drinking a Manhattan, Willa’s favorite, and we hope you get a chance to make it this week and cheers to sister partnerships. To learn more about and connect with Marni and Willa you can find them and their business on Instagram at blankfarmhouse and at blankstudionyc, you can also learn more by visiting blankstudionyc.com and theblankfarmhouse.com 

Dana: To learn more about our hustles, you can check us out on the gram at canddevents at thebradfordnc and at hustleandgather. If you’re interested in our speaking training or consulting, please look us up at hustleandgather.com.

Courtney: And if you love this show, we would be more than honored if you left us a rating and review, 

Dana: This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I’m Dana 

Courtney: and I’m Courtney, 

Dana: and we’ll talk to you next time on Hustle and Gather.