The Lies We Tell Ourselves, and Naked Yoga: Conversations with Sisters

Do you have a secret single behavior?  Is there a lie that you constantly tell yourself?  Today, Dana and Courtney on what they think the other person’s book would be called, their secret single behaviors, the lies we all tell ourselves, and facing our fears.

If you haven’t listened to the conversation with Bethany Howard, author of Permission Granted, it’s the episode before this one, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast app.


Courtney Hopper: Welcome to Hustle and Gather, a podcast about inspiring the everyday entrepreneur to take the leap. I’m Courtney. 

Dana Kadwell: And I’m Dana.

Courtney Hopper: And we’re two sisters who love business. On this show, we talk about the ups and downs of the hustle and the reward at the end of the journey. 

Dana Kadwell: We know all of the challenges that come with starting a business. Between operating our wedding venue, doing speaking and consulting, and starting our luxury wedding planning company, we wake up and hustle every day.

Courtney Hopper: And today we’re talking just the two of us about last week’s episode with Bethany Howard author of Permission Granted blogger and motivational speaker. If you haven’t heard last week’s episode, go give it a listen and come back to hear our thoughts.

Courtney:  All right, Dana let’s get started.

Dana:  So I, well, one, there were like so many things so much, but let’s start with like a softball.

A softball, a softball question of what do you think is a book that I would write? What would it be about?

Courtney:  First of all, I like to say, I feel like this is a dangerous question. And could

Dana:  it’s entrapment

Courtney: land us in therapy. What would the book be?

Systems and processes, how to live your best life most efficiently,

Dana:  so boring, but probably true.

I mean, maybe I am a boring person, but I do like systems and processes.

Courtney:  This is efficient a to B to C, then spoiler alert D

hit me

Dana:  Honestly, I can’t stop laughing. But your book would be purely about how to be a smart ass.

Courtney:  How to be a smart ass and still have friends.

Dana:  Yeah. But do you have friends now? I do. I, I feel like honestly, to be truthful, to not be silly for a minute about it, but I think you would write a book actually kind of similar to Bethany. Cause I think you’re all about owning who you are and say, this is me.

Either, suck it up and be my friend or I don’t care either way. I don’t


Courtney:  Dana has a future in like copyright. In title making.

Dana:  That’s not my strength.

Courtney:  Be my friend or suck it up. I don’t care. It’s true by Courtney.

Dana:   Yes. Yeah. Or how to be an asshole. So I feel like you’d be better at that. Yeah.

It’s my favorite comments.

Courtney:  I have a myriad of skillsets.

Dana:  But, Oh my goodness. Whew. I felt like there were so many nuggets and I, so actually, so backstory I’m I met Bethany from MOPS.. She was a MOP’s mom,

Courtney:  which is mothers of preschoolers.

Dana:  And I hadn’t been right around when I had Henry.  So it was like the last few years I was in MOPS

I always enjoyed her. She was really nice person and whatnot. So we just, we were friends on Facebook. We were friends on Instagram, then all of a sudden I saw her posting these things, but the hashtag permissiongranted I started following her more closely and she would post these poems that were just so poignant..

Yeah.  At the time. Definitely. And I always thought she was a great writer, but I feel like she had so many amazing things. I think so, think about it’s kind of overwhelming and like the 30 minutes we chatted. Yeah.

I know. I feel like it could’ve gone on for a lot longer. I was like, I could add this and this, but then I was like, that’s not the podcast brand permission, not granted.

No permission.

So yeah, no,

Courtney:  I think I felt like I love that she’s so relatable, like as a, what I consider a normal human and doing what we consider abnormal things. So, and that’s kind of. My thought, our thought behind hustle and gather is just everyday entrepreneurs. Like everyday people doing what everyday people can do that some would view extraordinary.

So I might just say more generic. I have no idea. Yeah. But yeah, I love that. I mean, I just, I liked that. I like how relatable she is. Like, there was so much in that that I have felt. Like, especially like taking up all aspects of your space. I told somebody recently, I was like, I am tired of living or just experiencing one aspect of my life, which is motherhood at 2020.

Like I’m over this aspect that I have like explored it exhaustively in 2020. And I’m ready to like, get back to the other aspects of who I am, because it felt very like. Mano aspect. I don’t know if that’s a word, but it should be aspect. Okay.

Dana:  I know what you mean. No, I mean, I guess I personally feel like that like about work in the past in 2020, like I feel like that’s all I’ve done is like eat and breathe and stress over work over like making right choices.

And it’s not even about like a time commitment. Cause I feel like I’ve had more time this year. Like February time at home, I have been working on the weekends, like I normally do, but. I feel like that’s all I am. And that’s the only thing I can talk about to anybody. I can’t even have a conversation about anything else, because all I’m talking, all I am thinking about is freaking pandemic and how it’s destroyed or it’s trying to destroy.

It has not destroyed everything we worked for. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, but I don’t, I haven’t been the main caretaker of our children during this pandemic. That’s totally been my husband. Yeah,

Courtney:  no, I, I, but I totally relate to that.

Dana:  Now. I really associate when she was talking about like imposter syndrome and when she got over, as I kind of, when she pursued who she was, and she was talking about the lies that we tell ourselves, like I wrote down, why are we so mean to ourselves?

And then it got me thinking. What are the lies that I’ve told myself?

Courtney:  What are the lies that you’ve told yourself?

Dana:  Oh, there’s been so many. I think, I think when I was younger, I told myself that I wasn’t worthy of like, being like, truly loved. You know, I, in a part of that, part of that is middle child syndrome.

Courtney:  I’m going to joke. I am. Dana’s older sister.

Dana:  She is, you cannot tell. But I think part of it’s being a middle child and just being forgotten a lot of the times that it kind of told me that I wasn’t worth being remembered. So therefore I wasn’t worth being loved. Like I was terrified that I would never get married one day ever.

Courtney:  And Dana’s defense. We did all forget her 18th birthday. Literally all of us forgot her 18th birthday.

Dana:  It was very depressing. So I think that, I think at business, I told myself that I didn’t know what I was doing. Like that was a lie that I was just like, whenever someone would say something, he would just be like, Oh yeah, I mean, it was Courtney’s idea.

And although it was Courtney’s idea, I feel like we were successful because we were together. You know, it wasn’t just one or the other. And then I feel like that I have anything worthy to say like, yeah, that’s a lie. I told myself for years and I still struggle with that. Wow. Like I have nothing worth saying, you know?

Courtney:  Yeah. I struggle with like, even on, not like, I mean, we don’t handle our Instagram for anything, but our own personal account now. And even on my personal account, when I feel like I’ve been given like maybe an epiphany that will help the world or maybe a world, are we able to reach one person? I have no idea.

I’m still like, Gun shy to put it up there, even though it’s like, what’s my followers, like 180 people or something like, why would I care about what I’m putting up for 180 people? Like, why am I thinking so much about this? You know, like just stick it up there and who cares if it resonates with some and someone else is like, Oh, that’s bullshit.

But I feel like what it comes down to is that you feel like. I didn’t go to school to be like a thought coach or like a life. Coach motivational, whatever, but actually, so I think who am I to say, or to speak into like what my truth is, but at the end of the day, it’s just my truth. Right. And people can take it for what it is.

If they get something from it. Great. If they don’t, they don’t. And I just loved the idea of her writing that book during a pandemic where like, you know, all shit’s going down around you, your kids are probably. Yelling, screaming at each other. You’re trying to homeschool them. And you’re like, actually, I’m going to carve out this time when I needed the most.

And it seems almost just like cathartic. Like, I love the idea of like, this is what I need to do right now.

Dana:  Well, yeah, I mean, it was totally when she’s talking about the story of her dog, right. And how the dog waits and it will one, what an obedient dog is. My dog was like, wait for nobody. But sitting at the door waiting, she opens the door.

She allowed the dog will go on the porch with her. And it was the moment his. Or hers was a boy or girl if he touched the grass. And she said he ran, like he was meant to, and there were so many things, one like it’s okay to need help to get where you’re supposed to be and run like you’re meant to. And I, she said that and I li I, I didn’t say, I was just like, how am I supposed to run?

Like what, what am I meant to do? And I think there was a lot of like, For me, I think we’ve never put us as women. I think a lot of times you don’t put yourself and. The scenario of like, who am I meant to be? It’s very much, well, this is what I’m supposed to do. Like I’m supposed to be the one, like for a long time, like, I’m the mom.

So I’m supposed to be the one that like sacrifices my career for my kids. And I’m the one that’s supposed to be tired and exhausted and stressed out. And I’m the one that’s supposed to know when all the doctor’s appointments are and make the dentist appointments and make sure they have their science project.

And that’s because I’m the mom, because that’s what society is telling me I’m supposed to do. Is that what I meant to do? No, that is not my strong suit in our family. Like, it’s just not like, I am not though. That’s not who I am meant to be. I am meant to be a mother, but I am meant to have a partner that absorbs some of that from me, because that’s not who I’m am meant to be.

Right. I don’t know. It was like really powerful and it was like such a great picture of truth. Like you could see yourself standing there at the door. Yeah. And waiting for someone to say it’s okay. It’s okay, go do what you’re supposed to do. Go run, go. And you’re like, I don’t know, put my foot on the porch, come hold my hand. Walk out there with me.

Courtney:  Same, I heard her say that I’m thinking maybe I want to be that person that holds someone else’s hand and takes them to the grass and says front. Yeah. Like learn from my mistakes. Like, let me guide you here. Let me like dispel the myth that you have in your head because I’ve lived with that.

Right. You know? Right. And I know that there is an actually truth to that. You know, it’s just really you holding you back and people perceive you in a lot of ways, the way that you perceive yourself. So your self perception is super important to how other people perceive you.

Dana:  How do you think people perceive you?

Courtney:  I don’t think about it so much anymore, but people perceive, well, I think they perceive me as a smart ass, probably most in part cause that’s what you say.

I don’t know. Like sometimes, I mean, sometimes I feel like people perceive me as like Dana’s little sister, even though I’m like, Dana’s older sister, but I’m like, but that Dana’s the boss.

I think that, I don’t know if that’s, but I don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s the way that I feel sometimes. I dunno. I think people perceive me as messy and I am messy. I perceived myself as messy. Like, like my life is messy, you know? Like it’s, I’m surprised you didn’t say that. I thought my book was going to be, life is a windy road.

Hmm, it’s a journey. You don’t know where it’s going to go. And like, I’m just one to take the bend, you know, like let’s 180 here. Let’s 360 here. Let’s go straight into spar. Let’s like veer 45 degrees here.

Dana:  I personally think people perceive you as someone who I don’t want to say he doesn’t care because that’s not what I am trying to say someone who is less guarded, no filter.

You say what you’re thinking. You’re a real person. You’re not trying to sugar coat anything. You’re not trying to please anybody. You’re just there because you’re there and you show up because you, because you care because if you didn’t truly care, you wouldn’t be there. You’d be like, I don’t, that’s true. Two shits about those things. So I’m not going to go

Courtney:  Yeah, I’m not really about appearances

Dana:  . Right. And I think I do. I, I, that’s probably not accurate of what people think, because I know you well, but that’s how, you know, sometimes I can see how you’re perceived, I guess.

Courtney:  I guess so. Yeah. I don’t think about it a whole lot, except for maybe when I’m at the post that stupid thing on Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think about it.

Dana:  . I think about it a lot more than I probably should think about it.

Courtney:  I think that about you.

Dana:  Yeah. I am a which is why a part of I’m more of a  wing nine, which for the longest time I thought I was a wing three, which just isn’t the truth, but definitely more wing nine cause I’m a peacemaker. I am definitely the person who wants to like make sure everyone’s okay. And I haven’t offended anybody. I haven’t hurt anybody’s feelings. So I don’t know what people think about me. I think for me, people perceive me as someone who has it all together. And I don’t have it all together.

Like I have a very messy life and, you know, I live a very messy life, but I think people also, I’d also try to say people think, I think I’m more important to myself. Like,

Courtney:  so you think that other people think that you think that you’re more important?

Dana:  I think like the, I, I like, self-absorbed almost like, well, I have to say so important.

Courtney:  There’s Sarah shaking her head quite vigorously.

Dana:  That what I think is more important than anybody else, I feel like sometimes I can feel that people perceive that about me. Like that my opinion matters more. Yeah. And I actually do not think about, I don’t think that at all, like in, in like acquaintance relationships, when it has something to do with my business, certainly I do think my opinion matters more than like my employees.

Right. Because my business, but, and like other aspects of life. Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney:  That’s amazing. Like how, what kind of baffles my mind when I think about it is how much credence. We give to our perception is of other people’s perceptions and allow that to dictate how we behave.

Dana:  Well. Yeah, I think it goes back to a lot of what she said about taking up your space, like yeah.

Because I don’t feel like my space is my space. I feel like it’s borrowed space, you know, hearing it from like the world. Like I’m afraid to fill up my space. Cause I feel like it’s going to encroach on somebody. Else’s interesting where I think you need to look at it very much when she talked about like owning all the pieces of us.

Like, because there is a lot of vulnerability and fear with owning your true self sometimes. Like, absolutely. Yeah. I was watching, Sex in the City just randomly. And they’re talking about secret single behavior, like things you do when nobody’s around. And one of them is talking about how she eats saltines stacked with jelly.

One of them was about how she stares at her pores in the mirror all night. Like just really embarrassing things that you don’t want, your like boyfriend or spouse to ever know that you do. And. I feel like that’s a lot of us in life. Yes. There’s things we do not want to admit that we believe that we think or act or things that we do and you want to hide it and you don’t want to own that part of you because you’re afraid of how that’s going to be accepted or if it’s not even gonna be  accepted.

Courtney:  Yeah. All right. So truth time, what’s one of those things. What’s your secret single behavior.

Dana:  Oh, that I do. Oh, geez. I don’t know. I like to sit in the bathroom sink and like, I like to sit in the sink. And like pluck my eyebrows, although I have, but although I have like a magnifying mirror, that’s easier to sit in my lap.

I like to sit in the sink. The first time I did it, Sam was like, what are you doing?

Courtney:  It’s must be genetic. I too sit in the sink on occasion and pluck my eyebrows. And I don’t recall ever seeing my mother do this. And my mother’s your mother. I know, but I don’t ever recall her doing it either. Yeah.

But I feel very nervous actually getting down off the sink.

Dana:  I don’t feel that way.

Courtney:  Well, it’s probably like the less of a fall for you. You’re so big and tall. Like your leg just hits the floor. Some of us, it doesn’t happen.

Dana:  Yeah. That’s cool. What’s your secret single behavior?

Courtney:  Secret single. Well, so this is my secret alone behavior.

Dana:  That’s probably more fair. She’s not a single

Courtney:  yeah, yeah. Alone at the house. Like nobody else is there. I will do naked yoga. I will turn up the heat. And I will do yoga completely naked. It’s very, very freeing because I feel like clothes are very constricting. Like I don’t like the way that clothes feel ever.

I like to not feel restricted, live by myself.

I guess.

Dana:  Oh my goodness.

Courtney: Oh, all right. We have gone down a rabbit trail. Yeah. Getting back to some of our thoughts from that episode.

Dana:  Well, I really loved when she started talking about fear one, I loved her talking about having a conversation with fear.

Like I thought that was amazing and just kind of like a light bulb moment. So kind of, like I mentioned in the podcast, I kind of did that before, but like recognizing that what it was, it wasn’t me trying to become more comfortable. It was my fear of what was actually going to happen in that conversation and using that skill and that kind of coping mechanism when you’re dealing with actual fear.

But I, I really, I really loved it. I loved that. And then just taking that fear with you, like just like baggage, like just put it in your purse, keep on going, just take it with you and keep on.

Courtney:  Yeah.

I, I feel like, like I said, it kind of reminded me of. Especially when I’m building the Bradford. I got a lot inspiration from the quote of life starts at the end of your comfort zone.

Cause there was lots of really super uncomfortable spots. When we first started building the Bradford, we’re like, Oh my God, we’re going to fail. It’s never going to be good enough. It’s not going to be perfect enough. We’re not going to have enough money. We’re not going to be able to do this. You know, it’s going to end our relationship.

You know, all of those things where like things that I told myself or feared when building the Bradford and it was like super uncomfortable and for us in our life, I mean, I know we’re making a big move and I just think when you’re making big moves and you’re doing big things, that there is fear because it’s not comfortable because it’s different and it’s something new.

And I think that instead of looking at fear as a negative thing, maybe it should be an indicator that you are on the right path like that. You know, unless you’re like in a horror film, but cause then you should use your fear. Like you ever watch those movies and you’re like, why, why in that situation, would you go into the garage where there’s like, no window and you’ve lost your train of thought, but yet, I don’t know.

Stupid. You should use fear then, but in your everyday life decisions, like maybe fear is an indicator that you’re doing something big and life-changing.

Dana:  I agree with that. Yeah. I think that is true because I feel like there’s a difference between like fear of your person, like your safety, right. And fear of just being uncomfortable.


Courtney:  Right. I guess we’re talking about like an uncomfortable fear. Not like I’m about to die. Right, right, right. Then you should listen to that.

Dana:  Yeah. Yeah. No, but I mean, I like, well, the thing that I feared the most with the Bradford was, was genuinely failing, was losing everything we put because we were born with a silver spoon in our mouth.

And we weren’t like given family money to build this saying it was copper. Yeah. I mean, it was literally just. Like everything we owned. I mean, it was selling stocks, it was selling houses. It was passing that retirement. Yeah. Doing all the things. Yeah. Build the Bradford, maxing out credit cards, all that stuff, you know, and if it failed.

Our whole financial security was gone. And at the time I was 29. So like, it’s not like I wouldn’t have time to rebuild my financial future, but in the moment I was so afraid of it. And a lot of it was guilt putting my family through it and was it for nothing dissecting of the family, but that was my genuine fear.

Yeah. And I don’t know if I ever got over it. I think I just swallowed it, pushed it down and. Ben said, well, it’s going to have to succeed. You know,

Courtney:  I think I didn’t necessarily, it felt like it was going to succeed. Like I, like, I feel like we’re were cautious enough. Like, even though it doesn’t sound cautious, it was super cautious.

And I thought we were going to succeed, but I always felt like it wasn’t going to be good enough for me. Like it wasn’t going to live up to my expectation. And the effort that was put into it,

Dana:  but it didn’t until last year.

Courtney:  That’s what I’m telling you. Yeah. So like, it really didn’t like, I didn’t even like planning weddings at our venue.

I hated it because something would undoubtedly not be perfect or would fail. And it was just like infuriating. Yeah. Yeah. So there was that, and I dunno, just trusting the process. I mean, our process wasn’t overnight and I’m not even saying that it’s. Perfect right now, but it’s better than I thought it would ever be.

Even when we were talking in 2013 and had all the hopes in the world that it’s turned out like the kind of windy road that it’s taken has turned out so much better than I could have ever expected, which really taught me to not listen to those fears and those self-doubts and to trust a little bit of the universe and the path that I’m on.

That we’re on as a business that it’s going to take us to where we need to be. I think there has to be a little bit of like trust and letting go. And I’m thankful for that now.

Dana:  Right? I mean, it’s kind of, so when the bank came back and said, Hey, actually, we’re not going to give you this loan. You can operate for a year and then maybe we will.

Yeah. It was like one of those things where you were like, maybe this is a bat, like maybe this is a bad idea, but you were already in it. So it was like, whether it’s about it or not, I have to suck it up and deal with it. But. And it kind of reminded me of that, what she talked about. Like when to listen, when you’re, when you’re gathering, I loved how she said it when you’re gathering knowledge and you’re trying to do the research be more. And then the difference between when you’re actually trying to seek answers and advice, right.

Courtney:  Differentiating between the two.

Dana:  Yeah. Because I think that’s really true. Like, I feel like it is one of those and it was, we talked about it as a skill that took a while, but that was one of those times when that was like a gathering information stage.

Like. There was no, I wasn’t going to listen to what you were saying. Like this isn’t going to be successful. You, you know, where you’re not gonna be successful as for us to even consider getting you a loan. And it was more, very much like, okay, well first is going to go to a different bank. Right. Like, obviously you’re not the bank for us.

Courtney:  Right. Which we did First Citizens.. Use them for your small business. It’s a plug through, love them. So kind of like routing this out, like my most favorite thing that she said, and like the whole podcast, honestly, and it kind of sums up how I feel about entrepreneurship in general. And I hope she doesn’t like trademark it.

Maybe we could use it for a tagline. Is that she couldn’t have thought ever that she would be having the time of her life and feel like she was in over her head at the same time. So true. And like, I totally resonated with that because I know Dana says a Courtney got me into this and blah, blah, blah. It was always not always for a very long time.

It was my dream, my passion, et cetera, to build a venue, build a beautiful space where people could gather. Go into business with my sister. It was all about that too. Like, it was equally as important to me and we were totally in over our head. I mean, totally in overhead, but literally like as many ups and downs as it’s been, it’s like, then the time of my life, like literally spend the time of my life, such that up until even just recently, I felt like I could dream beyond what it is.

Right. Like I was so envelops in what it was and living out. This dream, right? That. I didn’t have room for other ones. Right. You know, and I just, it resonated with me so much that it’s literally been the time of my life. And we’ve literally been in over our head on multiple occasions. How are we going to get our shit together?

How are we going to get out of this, et cetera? That is like, wouldn’t change it for the world.

Dana:  Oh yeah. I don’t, I don’t think I, I totally agree with that. Like there, the past, like five years have brought so much to it. There’s been a lot of heartache. There’s been a lot of hard things, but it has been so much joy.

I mean, just even. The desires of our kids growing up together like that, you know, I say every time, like, you didn’t know, it was morning until you heard Liam in the morning when we lived next door. Yeah. Like Liam was like the rooster

Courtney:  He still is, he wakes up at like between 5:30 and  and six everyday.

Dana:  And none of our doors locked, So like at any given time, like a kid would go over to each other’s houses. And like, there was a lot of joy and a lot of happiness with that, you know, that was really wonderful. And then I feel like too, it’s. Falling into like who I, who I feel like I should be, you know? And just the amount of relationships with people and the industry, people outside of the industry, like all the amazing things they’ve got to do, like the travel we’ve been able to go and like, and speak places.

And it’s just been like surreal. Yeah. All at the same time. And you know, and then you come home and you have to deal with, you know, angry clients and. Yeah. You’re like, Oh, how am I going to do this? Hugging his friend a year. Right. But I totally agree with that.

Courtney:  Yeah. So I totally, I love that. Yeah. Didn’t know.

You could have the time of your life and be in over your head at the same time. Like favorite, favorite line. I know. So thank you so much. I mean, like. Permission Granted totally Bethany, great job.

Dana:  I highly recommend the book. Yeah, it is great. It’s a, it’s more of a workbook style. So it’s like a poem and then there’s questions and things for you to digest and think through.

And I totally loved the fact that she was like, it’s not day one day, two day three, because that gives me anxiety and stresses me out. Because if I miss a day, I feel like I have to do two days in a row, but I literally just whatever I’m feeling uninspired or like, need that little pick me up. I’ll pick up the book.

And now like, okay, what am I what’s stressing me out right now. What do I need to like dissect in my life? Or I feel like I should look at not go to that section and work through it and talk about it. And remember it takes a couple of days for me to really like, get it. Yeah.

Courtney:  But I think that’s normal life.

Like I personally am on a 30 day yoga journey that I started in January. I’m on day 16. It’s not naked yoga journey. So like I might get through it in march. Yeah. But highly recommend, highly recommend it. So check it out, alright.

Courtney Hopper: All right. 

Dana Kadwell: To learn more about our hustles visit,, and Or follow us on Instagram @CandDEvents, @TheBradfordNC, and @HustleandGather. And if you like this show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and a review. 

Courtney Hopper: This podcast is a production of Earfluence. I’m Courtney.

Dana Kadwell:  And I’m Dana. 

Courtney Hopper: And we’ll talk to you next time on Hustle and Gather.

Full Episode Transcript

Hustle and Gather is hosted by Courtney Hopper and Dana Kadwell, and is produced by Earfluence.  Courtney and Dana’s hustles include C&D Events, Hustle and Gather, and The Bradford Wedding Venue.

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